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English => Discussions => Topic started by: Тоска on May 23, 2010, 17:08

Title: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 23, 2010, 17:08
Would it be possible to define writer's observation as an evidence of pomak language?
 
This citation's from "TSVETKOVA, B. (1963) ‘French travellers from the 15th to the 18th century, on the Rodopi region and
adjacent Aegean areas’, in: Rodopi Collection, Vol. 1"
 
Quote
Ottoman documents, information about the Pomaks is relatively scarce. Frenchman Paul Lucas was the first European to mention Slavophone Muslims in the Rodopi Mountains in 1706. Crossing the mountains from Plovdiv to Drama, he reached Pashmakli (the present-day Smolyan) and wrote the following in his diary: ‘And when we had covered a distance of seven miles in those same mountains and along very arduous paths, we passed through the village called Pashmakli. It is populated by Turks only, but they do not speak their language. Their dialect is, rather, distorted Slavonic mixed with Greek and Bulgarian

Probably turkish definition of paul lucas used by instead of muslim population.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Глиган on May 23, 2010, 18:20
Pomak language = bulgarian language
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: rado on May 23, 2010, 18:28
Of course.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: ЖАРКО ЖЕГЛЕВ on May 23, 2010, 19:59
It is populated by Turks only.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 23, 2010, 20:20
Turk means muslim in the Balkans


Become Turk is equal become muslim in Pomak tongue.


Ako si Turchin da si vyarvash.


Turchin = Muslim in our language.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Глиган on May 23, 2010, 20:34
Изперкалите фанатици пак почнаха..:) muslim = turk :) тъй, тъй, другарю комунист
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 23, 2010, 20:46
Моля пишете по-английски!!!
 
Truth is truth man. Meanwhile if u wanna to charge someone who tells the truth please show ur respect ;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: neru on May 23, 2010, 21:45
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Моля пишете по-английски!!!
 
По-ингилизки от ингилизки не  може.Виж,друга работа си е  - Пишете на англиѝски!
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: ЖАРКО ЖЕГЛЕВ on May 23, 2010, 22:02
Do not angry with me.
I did not say. Mr. Paul Lucas said if you pay attention.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 23, 2010, 23:12
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi47.tinypic.com%2F2sblh75.png&hash=86fa8a595ef2e534f9f55f779130d0cbda3680d0)
 
 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Nazmi on May 24, 2010, 00:06
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Изперкалите фанатици пак почнаха.. muslim = turk  тъй, тъй, другарю комунист

 
Последно предупреждение за Глиган !!!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: EvroPOMAK on May 24, 2010, 00:16
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Would it be possible to define writer's observation as an evidence of pomak language?
This citation's from "TSVETKOVA, B. (1963) ‘French travellers from the 15th to the 18th century, on the Rodopi region and adjacent Aegean areas’, in: Rodopi Collection, Vol. 1"
Probably turkish definition of paul lucas used by instead of muslim population.
Another evidence as straight nail stuck in the wooden box of Nazism to the authenticity and purty of modern language!   :o   ;D   ;)
 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 24, 2010, 08:51
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Изперкалите фанатици пак почнаха.. muslim = turk  тъй, тъй, другарю комунист

Please look at this source for how to become muslim=turk: as a sample.
 
http://www.google.com/books?id=wN4A0FMweQoC&pg=PA21&dq=islamization+in+balkans+become+turk&lr=&ei=0xH6S9jWB4uGyAT0jLCYCg&hl=tr&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://www.google.com/books?id=wN4A0FMweQoC&pg=PA21&dq=islamization+in+balkans+become+turk&lr=&ei=0xH6S9jWB4uGyAT0jLCYCg&hl=tr&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false)
 
"Ethnic cleansing in the Balkans: nationalism and the destruction of tradition"   
Author: Cathie Carmichael
 
"nationalist ideas which developed in the ninenteenth century tended to exclude Muslims from the nation, because by adopting Islam they were perceived to have become de facto Ottomans (and were sometimes referred to indiscriminately as "Turks".  page: 23
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 24, 2010, 09:39
We as Pomaks living in Turkey define our tongue as “Pomaski ezik” what we are speaking. None of our people use the definition of Bulgarian. Because we are Pomak People in Turkey and the name of our language is Pomaski=Pomakça.

Secondly our member Recep Memiş said that his mother is calling “Aarensky or Ahrensky”. Interestingly she never use and don’t accept the term of Pomaski. This definition means Ahrenski is the language of Ahrens.

Two different aspects of viewing.
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 24, 2010, 20:53
Most of the bulgarian racists define macedonian as bulgarian (soon they 'll begin to qualify serbian as a subdialect of bulgarian  ;D ) but as we know there are so many differencies between them. With simple logic we can easily define rhodopean tongues as like as a language. If macedonian is an accepted language by linguistic scientists, pomak language would be accept as a language. M i right ?
Title: Re: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 24, 2010, 21:24
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Most of the bulgarian racists define macedonian as bulgarian (soon they 'll begin to qualify serbian as a subdialect of bulgarian   ) but as we know there are so many differencies between them. With simple logic we can easily define rhodopean tongues as like as a language. If macedonian is an accepted language by linguistic scientists, pomak language would be accept as a language. M i right ?ian
The language spoken in Macedonia and Bulgarian are mutually intelligible although in Macedonia many Serbian words were introduced. So they could be regarded as two sub groups of one language as British and American English.
Regarding to the language spoken by pomaks in Bulgaria. Pomaks in Bulgaria speak a dialect from the region they live. Teteven pomaks speak a Balkan mountain dialect as well as their christian neighbours. Pomaks from Nevrokop region as well as Babek pomaks speak a dialect of the Pirin dialectig group which is spread in south west Bulgaria. Pomaks from Chech can be put in the same group. Smolyan pomaks speak the same dialect as the Christisn population of Smolyan region. Of course every village has its own dialect but generally it is the same Rup dialect spoken by pomaks and christians in Smolyan region. So how could it be a separate language. Genarally pomaks speak the dialect or a sub dialect of the region they live. For example the dialect of Teteven and Nevrokop pomaks is very close to the standart Bulgarian language, much more closer than Shop dialect spoken in the surroundings of Sofia and the dialects of Vratsa and Vidin. Pomaks in Smolyan region speak the most different dialect but it is shared by christians there. So if we assume that Pomaks in Smolyan region speak a separate Pomak language, do their christian neighbours speak Pomak also? Why they speak Pomak if they are not Pomaks??  So as you can see we can't speak about a separate Pomak language. Pomaks in Bulgaria speak a dialect of Bulgarian shared by their Christian neighbours (Smolyan and Teteven Pomaks) and their own dialect which is very close to dialects speak by christians in the region (Nevrokop, Babek and Chech Pomaks).
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 24, 2010, 23:26
Balkandjiq, firstly this analize had taken from somewhere which 's possible to disprove of existence of pomak language. It may related with nacional policy. Rup dialect (according to you & many linguistic scientists) seems to differs from official bulgarian even macedonian. If you ask me which one i would prefer to define a separate language my answer will be the rup ;) nor macedonian or bulgarian
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 25, 2010, 08:25
But. Toska, Rup is spoken also by Christians in the region. How it could be a separate language and called Pomak language if it is spoken by Christians also ??? This is the question.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 25, 2010, 09:41
Don't forget that religion unify the nation like a language at least one of them strenghten the other one. For example bosniaks speak a serbo-croatian dialect but on the other hand their language determine as a separate language from serbian. Even there exist christian serbs and all of them are speaking the same language that is to say "Bosnian"  ;) 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 25, 2010, 10:02
The case of the Bosniaks is very different. In the middle ages they had an independent and strong state. And their state religion was Bogomilism. During to Ottoman rule most of them converted to islam, but some converted to Orthodoxy, other to Catholicism. So these people who are called Bosnians serbs are bosniaks who converted to orthodoxy and bosnian croats are bosniaks who converted to Catholcism. In fact the Serbo-Croatian language is an artificial language which was created by Vuk Karadjich and his scholars in the early 19th Century. This language was based on the language spoken by the serbs and a great croatian influence. Gradually this language replaced local languages in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia. Because of this now this  three nations speak one language. If you go to some regions of Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia you still can hear the ancient languages of this people spoken there. They are clearly three separate slavic languages.
So the case of Bosnia is very very different from the case of Rup dialect.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 25, 2010, 10:22
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The case of the Bosniaks is very different. In the middle ages they had an independent and strong state. And their state religion was Bogomilism. During to Ottoman rule most of them converted to islam, but some converted to Orthodoxy, other to Catholicism. So these people who are called Bosnians serbs are bosniaks who converted to orthodoxy and bosnian croats are bosniaks who converted to Catholcism. In fact the Serbo-Croatian language is an artificial language which was created by Vuk Karadjich and his scholars in the early 19th Century. This language was based on the language spoken by the serbs and a great croatian influence. Gradually this language replaced local languages in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia. Because of this now this  three nations speak one language. If you go to some regions of Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia you still can hear the ancient languages of this people spoken there. They are clearly three separate slavic languages.
So the case of Bosnia is very very different from the case of Rup dialect.

Sadly, This is not a response to my question. I asked if existence of bosnian language and analogue case between them. Also rup is much more different from official bulgarian than difference of bosnian from serbian. Meantime using your own comments will provide us with invaluable information about what people in the bulgaria think about ethnic diversity ;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 25, 2010, 10:49
Ethnic diversity in Bulgaria is huge. More than 14 ethnic groups live here. Some of the like Gagauzs and Karakachans are almost extinct. But about the language. I don't think that Rup is a separate language. When I was in Xanthi and Kavala where pomaks speak pure Rup dialect I didn't have any problems with understanding them, neighther they to understand me, speaking standart Bulgarian. I had more problems with understanding people from Samokov and Vidin regions in Bulgaria than with pomaks in Greece. And of course I can't understand even 30% of the Trn regional dialect from western Bulgaria but it doesn't make it a separate language.
I hope that a linguist will take a part in this discussion, because you and me are amatiors in this field of study!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 25, 2010, 16:22
Златоградски Диалект 1 (http://vbox7.com/play:c850f038)
 
Balkandjiya,
As you can see many of them don't understand. And as you know majority of zlatograd is pomak;) Most important thing is a person who have got experience or wonder on various slavic dialects like you, would claim rup's a subdialect of bulgarian.  Clarity of dialect from a region requires at least % 70 -80 similarity with official language. I bet that zlatograd's is less than % 70-80  ;)   
 
Selected comments from zlatogradski dialect ?
 
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi47.tinypic.com%2F24zamub.png&hash=a9be791c8852b31bbc0bd645e79a64a5f6ce302d)
 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 25, 2010, 16:54
But I will say again. Christians in this region also speak Rup. Do they speak pomak? Are they pomaks? But as I said better linguists to come. They could say more things than me.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 25, 2010, 18:18
Christian serbians who are living in bosnia and speaking majority of muslim bosnian's language do they muslims ?  ;)  but I agree with you about linguistic scientists.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on May 25, 2010, 19:53
In this case, I cannot agree that there is such a thing as pomak language.

In Bulgaria there is the official Bulgarian language, that was created in the late 19th century, based on a few dialects from the area of Veliko Tarnovo and Sofia regions and there is the spoken vernaculars.

Wherever you go in Bulgaria, all small villages have their own dialects based on the region.

These are dialects that have evolved for centuries, but which have one thing in common - the grammar is Bulgarian.
There exists a grammatical linguistic unity between all Bulgarian dialects. Often the dialects in the different regions differ in the morphology and the range of foreign words.
The western dialects, being transitional between Bulgarian and Serb languages, have a lot of Serbian words. The Southern dialects respectively have a lot of Turkish and Greek words.
What unites all these dialects is the grammar and the syntax - the way sentences are being built. There lies the difference between Bulgarian and other Slavic languages.

The pomak villages speak the dialects that are spoken in the region. It is a shared language between Christians and Muslims and that is why we cannot claim that pomak is different from Bulgarian.

Reasons:
1. Pomaks do not speak one language. We speak different languages, depending on what part of Bulgaria we live in. The Pomaks in Northern Bulgaria speak like the Christians there - northern Bulgarian dialects
The pomaks in Pirin region speak pirin dialects, just like their Christian neighbours - Pirin dialects.
Pomaks in Rhodopi speak same rhodopean dialect as the Christians there.

2. The dialects in the pomak villages employ Bulgarian grammar, morphology and syntax. There is a lot of Turkish words from the Ottoman era, but this is valid for all Bulgaria. Wherever you go, the dialects have a lot of Turkish words in them. The Burgas region populated mainly by Christians have tons of Turkish words in their vernacular. Varna region has tons of Turkish words etc., etc.

With the introduction of the modern Bulgarian language in the late 19th c. most of Bulgaria is trying to get rid of the foreign words and tries to introduce the Bulgarian equivalents instead.

3. We cannot claim that there is such a thing as pomak language, mainly because there is no unity between the different dialects spoken in pomak villages across Bulgaria. The underlying unity is Bulgarian syntax, morphology and grammar.


There is huge differences in the dialects across Bulgaria, but again these are all dialects of the Bulgarian group.
Southern Slavic languages include Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Bulgarian, and Macedonian. A lot of scholars assign Macedonians to Bulgarian or name it as transitional between BG and Serbian.


All dialects in these groups differ a lot, but they are all united by the linguistic characteristics of the respective group.


The dialects spoken in the pomak villages are of the Bulgarian group - heavily influenced by Turkish and with a lot of ancient Slavic remnants and archaisms, but nonetheless these are all Bulgarian dialects.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: neru on May 25, 2010, 20:56
Bulgarian dialects (Bulgarian: български диалекти, balgarski dialekti, also български говори, balgarski govori or български наречия, balgarski narechiya) are the regional spoken varieties of the Bulgarian language, a South Slavic language. Bulgarian dialectology dates to the 1830s and the pioneering work of Neofit Rilski, Bolgarska gramatika (published 1835 in Kragujevac, Serbia). Other notable researchers in this field include Marin Drinov, Konstantin Josef Jireček, Lyubomir Miletich, Aleksandar Teodorov-Balan, Stoyko Stoykov.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_dialects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_dialects)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: KaraIbrahim on May 26, 2010, 01:11
 If we want to have Pomak language, then we will have to Vratsa language, for example.
There also speak  language, different of Bulgarian literary...

 And generally,I think this desire for separatism in the early 21 century is useless to anyone
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 26, 2010, 09:10
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These are dialects that have evolved for centuries, but which have one thing in common - the grammar is Bulgarian
The grammer is south-east slavic
 
Quote
Wherever you go in Bulgaria, all small villages have their own dialects based on the region.

True but if you go to the pomak villages which located on rhodope mountains. You can easily find structural differencies not dialectical one.
 
Quote
The dialects in the pomak villages employ Bulgarian grammar, morphology and syntax

Also archaic forms, morphology and syntax
 
Quote
There is huge differences in the dialects across Bulgaria, but again these are all dialects of the Bulgarian group.

There is huge differences in the slavic dialects across south-east europe. These are all dialects and tongues of the south-east slavic group.
 

Quote
In Bulgaria there is the official Bulgarian language, that was created in the late 19th century, based on a few dialects from the area of Veliko Tarnovo and Sofia regions and there is the spoken vernaculars.

Seeing that the official bulgarian not contains relevant dialects from rhodope region. I must think twice before i peg down as common/unified/official language.   
 

 
Decission belongs to pomaks anyway. It's easy to create (i mean alphabet and literatural samples) pomak language. Dialectical approachs seem to related with national feelings. As we know greek side performs studies about pomak language and even there are several requests about pomak language accept as an educational language.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 26, 2010, 10:15
I think that Boyan is right. He gave a lot of arguments.
Yes Toska, decission is to pomaks, but we have to estimate the fact that pomaks in Bulgaria in their majority do not claim that their dialect is a separete language.
But if Rup is proclaimed as a pomak language what about other Pomaks who do not speak it, because they have their own dialects?
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 26, 2010, 10:55
Some arguments:

Pomak language is between Bulgarian and Macedonian languages.
There are close relations but have many differencies with them.
Pomak language is more slavic than Bulgarian.
Pomak language has more preserved the Slavic purity than Bulgarian.
Pomak language belongs to the South-East Slavic group.
It is not easy to say that Pomak language is the same as Bulgarian.
Pomak language is more preserved in immigrants in Turkey.
Immigrants in Turkey do not define her own language as Bulgarian but Pomak language.
Rhodope region history has not always gone together with Bulgarian history.
Rhodope region is a combination point of the Bulgarian, Greek and Turkish cultures.
Therefore has it own richness and diversity.
Bulgarian language have created in 19. century as a syntetic language.
Under the German domination Czech language had death but was raised again.
Under the Arab domination Persi language had death along the 3 centuries, but poet Firdevsi has aroused the Persi language by Shahname.
And Ibrani language had dissapeared along the 2000 years but Israelis has resurrected this death language.
Pomak language is not too hard to standardize as a modern tongue.

We as Pomaks are aware of our diversity have not been any intention of separatism in the countries where we live.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Беглик on May 26, 2010, 11:02
Toska, my personal experience with this topic is on just one occasion. My teacher in literature, himself from a village near Pirdop, once told us in class when speaking about dialects how he was enchanted by an elderly patient with whom he shared a room in a Plovdiv State Hospital. The man was from a village in the Zlatograd region. Unfortunately, from the many wonderful phrases we were told, currently I remember just one: Много больно бе даскальче, много больно.

Now  I remember the story of Eliza Dolittle from My Fair Lady, who although living in a city was initially totally uncomprehensible. Plus remember the ability of her professor only through the dialect to be able to pinpoint the origin of the speaker to a very small region.

Also, since you've raised the question of the Macedonian language, in the seventies I was listening to Radio Scopie, mainly the show Трите Гонга на Гьоко Георгиев. There I understood 100% of the stuff. In 1987 for the first time I met a person from there, a businessman, and I understood only about 70% of what he was saying. The feeling was that he was speaking some Bulgarian and you relax, then out of a sudden a totally unknown word or an exression will be used and the meaning is lost. Now, from the current Macedonian language I understand very little, maybe 10, 15%.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 26, 2010, 11:07
Mustafa, the language spoken by Pomaks in Turkey is very far from the language their ancestors spoke in Bulgaria and Greece. Today in Turkey it is heavy influenced by modern Turkish.
About the language I want to give you one more exapmle.
Turkish spoken by Turks in Northern Bulgaria, called Danubian Turkish (Tuna turkca) is very different from Turkish spoken in Kardjali region and Turkish spoken in Turkey. It is very hard for other Turks do understand this dialect and for its speakers to understand standard Turkish. But nobody says that it is not Turkish but a separate language.  The same is the case with Rup dialect. And I want to ask you which dialect you regard as Pomak language? Bacause pomaks in Bulgaria speak various dialects, and for pomaks out of Rup region it is hard to understand Rup.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 26, 2010, 11:48
I don’t think so, contrary Pomak language spoken in Turkey not influinced by Turkish so many. Because Pomaks also learn Turkish as a second language and do not  add Turkish words to their language. So Pomak language remains her own.

Our dialect is Rup dialect spoken central Rhodopi but with a century earlier preserved version.

 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 26, 2010, 13:04
http://slavenica.com/ (http://slavenica.com/)  congratulations !   
 

(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi45.tinypic.com%2Ffmhhk.png&hash=99a0c9da8d3615d92d98f57abf4748308714e166)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 26, 2010, 13:51



(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.snimka.bg%2F6326%2F018906878-big.jpg&hash=59d266ce5e04a991c42f763b87080c5bdba4205f)





As we can see the difference between them here is minor. ;)






http://slavenica.com/ (http://slavenica.com/)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 26, 2010, 15:27
Kakvo praviş? Ut kade si? Yé sam … i sam ut Balgariya.
Yé hubavu e, çe se videhme. Atuka pri vas yé mlogu hubavu. 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 26, 2010, 15:38
There is no "which?" in Bulgarian so I would suggest that the word "kutri, kutra, kutro?" the pure slavic word.
Because "koi?" is equivalent "who?" in our tonque but "kutri" means "which?".
What do you think?
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 26, 2010, 16:12
As far as I know in Serbian which is also a Slavic language WHO and WHICH is the same word- KO. In Russian there is a difference-  WHO is KTO and WHICH is KOTORIY. The Russian is simmilar to Rup one KUTRI but I will say again that it is not used only by pomaks but also from Christians in Rodope and Strandja mountains who also speak Rup dialects. As Boyan explained this thing which unites dialects in one language is the grammar. Tell me what in grammar except the triple identify article which is present in other Bulgarian dialects also is different from standard Bulgarian. Of course standard Bulgarian combines features from many dialects and because of this is it different from each of them. In fact standard Bulgaria is spoken only in TV and medias. In every area people speak an unique dialect.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 26, 2010, 16:55
Yes our tongue or dialect -as you stated that - there are some interesting similarities with Russian. We think that this is authentic remains from Smolyani slavic clan.
 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 26, 2010, 17:01
One the other hand, official languages are political projects that unite the people in one pot.
When Slavs spread out the vast regions differencies has increased between them. Thus separate slavic nations have occured. We are the remnants of Smolyani slavic clan not from proto-bulgarians.  So there will be some differencies. Our language is based on slavic gramer the same as bulgarian. But we can not say that two languages are exactly the same.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 26, 2010, 17:04
Moite selo - Moina selo i guess this example contains different syntax also gender-neutral pronoun   

 
Anecdote

"Anywhere, A bulgarian man see a slovenian man who speak with telephone and our man takes heed off. Than he come up to slovenian man and tells him: - you are using " Da " allright then you are a bulgarian. Pride with yourself "   
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Беглик on May 26, 2010, 17:13
Here is an example which doesn't seem to be gender neutral:

Сърцето ме боли за мойне другари,
  мойна дружина във зандани лежи.
  Нашети клети майки черни кърпи носят,
  нашети мили братя тъжни песни пеят.
 
  Искам да си ида в мойно родно село,
  та да си прегърна мойне мили сестри.
  Мъка ми на сърце за българска земя,
  за българска земя, за мойна дружина.
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 26, 2010, 17:23
мойно (neutral) родно село,
мойне (plural) мили сестри
мойна (female) дружина
 
Most important question. Do they whiped as an official grammer rule ? if not they're all nonsense   
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Беглик on May 26, 2010, 17:27
OK
Title: Re: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: dunyata on May 26, 2010, 19:57
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мойно (neutral) родно село,
мойне (plural) мили сестри
мойна (female) дружина
 
Most important question. Do they whiped as an official grammer rule ? if not they're all nonsense 

I see an attempt to explore three genders. Hum, these three genders are pretty normal for the Bulgarian language. But let me correct you: мойна дружина isn't male - it's female (or maybe in the Pomak language it's male, hm-hm... I wonder). And the expression мойне мили сестри isn't just female - it's plural.
Also I see an article which I absolutely usual Bulgarian way of speaking/writing in the last few centuries.

But what you're talking about?

That discussion just repeats older topics in the Bulgarian-language section of the forum. Just repeat it again and again...

There are many people who gave arguments to prove that Pomaks speak different regional Bulgarian dialects. As I'm descendant of Christians from Rhodope mountains I don't share the idea that the language of my ancestors was not Bulgarian.

Dear friends from Turkey, you call us "racists" because we don't give up our language - the most ancient Slavic language in the world. I respect your right to build your identity, even to create some imaginary history but I don't accept to do it at the   expense of the Bulgarians. I don't think it's a gentleman's behavior.

I respect your right of opinion and free speech in your forum, but as you invited me in that topic, I feel free to tell you: stop these stupidities!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 26, 2010, 20:41
As usual the time comes to say something about my mistake. Firstly thnx to ur correction but unfortunately you confirm differencies between languages so i have written for bulgarian nor for pomak language. My manner of approaching is same as macedonians. But what a pity that your discourse of macedonian language is a dialect of bulgarian, remained unfulfilled  ;)   
 
Among the other things why do you assume about getting your language ? As a matter of fact we don't want your language  ;D     
 
And i ask again about my last sentence (corrected with yourself) Do they whiped as an official grammer rule ? if not they're all nonsense !       
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Abdula on May 26, 2010, 21:00
Ассалям алейкум уа рахматулЛахи уа баракатуху.

Обръщам се към администраторите!

Моля затворете тази  дискузия!

Обръщам се към останалите!

За какво говорите тука, не ви ли е срам? Нямате друга тема на разговор  ли? Това, за което говорите  тука  е празен разговор. - Това е грях. Искате да се разделите ? Разделяй и владей - това е лозунг на кафирите, на безбожниците. Всеки си има глава за да разбере правилния път. Всеки човек работи за себе си доколкото разбира,  а неразбирането му   работи за този който разбира повече. Преди да се говори празен разговор, трябва много добре да се помисли кой и с каква цел го е започнал. Мъчно ми се вижда всичко това, че един народ се разделя на два и колкото повече време минава толкова в пропорция ръсте преградата между него, говоря за българите , макар че знам, че не бива да се мъча, защото това е волята на Аллах. Не бива да се продалжава този разговор.
Уалейкум ассалям.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: dunyata on May 26, 2010, 21:16
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As usual the time comes to say something about my mistake. Firstly thnx to ur correction but unfortunately you confirm differencies between languages so i have written for bulgarian nor for pomak language. My manner of approaching is same as macedonians. But what a pity that your discourse of macedonian language is a dialect of bulgarian, remained unfulfilled     


How the people in the Rhodope say one дружина?

Why don't you try to expose your concept of the "Pomak language"? Make us familiar with your ideas about the structure, the grammar and the unique linguistic rules, which distinguish the Pomak speech from the official Bulgarian standard.


(Don't mix the topic's subject with the Macedonian question. Try to find arguments for your own thesis... if you can)
 
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Among the other things why do you assume about getting your language ? As a matter of fact we don't want your language       


Then why do you pretend that Rup dialect isn't Bulgarian? The Bulgarian-speaking Christians speak that Rup dialect from many centuries - long before the term Pomak appears under the sun. In a matter of fact, in order to create a separate language, you try to steal the dialect of local Bulgarians in Rhodope mountains. Sorry for you, but the Bulgarian written language is codified more than eleven centuries ago, it went through many transformations and even today its dialects are 90% relevant to the official standard. 
 
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And i ask again about my last sentence (corrected with yourself) Do they whiped as an official grammer rule ? if not they're all nonsense !     

What exactly do you mean?   

---------------------------
Toska, in the last years your forum repeats the same thing and I'm surprised that you are not able to do something more.
If you pretend to prove the existing of a separate Pomak language, I expect you to be more academic. Try to expose here a clear and logical concept. Throwing the question "Pomak language?" and just repeating "it exists, it exists, it exists..." without any scientific explanation is a little bit childish!

If you want to be accepted seriously, try to be serious in your thesis.
 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: tsigahrah on May 26, 2010, 23:09
Friends, calm down.

Officially (at least from the point of view of Bulgarian science) pomaks speak various (note - not a single one) dialect of Bulgarian language. But taking into consideration the situation with the "Macedonian language" we have to admit that in some other political situation Pomak dialects could form a separate language.

Can anyone here define the exact difference between a dialect and a language???
Bulgarian is one language, Turkish is another language. People cannot understand each other without learning/training/practicing.
But I can understand Macedonians,  I can even speak the way they do, they can understand my Bulgarian and can speak the way I do. So what makes Macedonian a separate language? Politics and only politics. And why the Bulgarian dialects in Pirin Macedonia are considered dialects of Bulgarian and not Macedonian? The answer is simple - politics.

You want to have a straight answer - black or white, yes or no. But you never will receive a definite answer, simply because "language" and "dialect" is almost the same thing.

If you ask me, we (the bulgarian-shopi-macedonian-torlak-pomak-thracian-dobrudzhan speaking people) are too few to be separated.
United we go stronger: Culture, Economy, Science.
Look at Germany - big country of 16 different states, but they are united and they are strong.
Look at France - big country, different cultures, but they are united and they are strong.
Look at Turkey - big country, so many different ethnic groups, but they are united and they are strong.
Now look at us - the Balkan countries. We want to separate, separate, separate and we go weaker and weaker.

Pomak language? No thanks. But if you - the pomaks in Rhodopa - do feel that you need it as a separate language and that it will make you life better, or the life of your children and grandchildren - go ahead it is your right to do so.
   
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on May 26, 2010, 23:12
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Some arguments:

Pomak language is between Bulgarian and Macedonian languages.
There are close relations but have many differencies with them.
Pomak language is more slavic than Bulgarian.
Pomak language has more preserved the Slavic purity than Bulgarian.
Pomak language belongs to the South-East Slavic group.
It is not easy to say that Pomak language is the same as Bulgarian.
Pomak language is more preserved in immigrants in Turkey.
Immigrants in Turkey do not define her own language as Bulgarian but Pomak language.
Rhodope region history has not always gone together with Bulgarian history.
Rhodope region is a combination point of the Bulgarian, Greek and Turkish cultures.
Therefore has it own richness and diversity.
Bulgarian language have created in 19. century as a syntetic language.
Under the German domination Czech language had death but was raised again.
Under the Arab domination Persi language had death along the 3 centuries, but poet Firdevsi has aroused the Persi language by Shahname.
And Ibrani language had dissapeared along the 2000 years but Israelis has resurrected this death language.
Pomak language is not too hard to standardize as a modern tongue.

We as Pomaks are aware of our diversity have not been any intention of separatism in the countries where we live.



Ago Mustafa,

There`s a lot of things that are questionable here.

First lets start with what language do you define as "pomak" - the language from the Rupchos region, the language from Chech region, the language from Pirin region, the language from Lovech in Northern Bulgaria, Pleven or Teteven?
These are all distinctive regions where pomaks are found and we are all with different dialects.
The pomaks from Northern Bulgaria don`t speak like the ones in Rupchos.
The Pirin pomaks speak different than the Eastern Rhodope people.

If you consider the dialect Rupchos to be pomak language, then what language do the pomaks from the other regions speak?

Please keep in mind that a lot more Christians speak Rupchos dialect than Muslims, as the Rup dialects stretch from Western Rhodopes to Strandja and Sakar to the East.
So we canno claim that this is pomak language as the Christians living here speak the same dialect.

I understand that the situation in Turkey is different. There the only people speaking what you call "pomak" are namely the pomaks that were resettled after the fall of the Ottoman empire. You have no contacts with Christian Bulgarians from the Rupchos region. If you had contact, you would have seen that these Christians speak absolutely the same language that you speak. Of course due to the mass education and the influence of the media, the people living in the Rhodopi region tend to speak the official Bulgarian language. But the old people, both Christian and Muslim, speak still the dialects.


So Rupchos dialects are not privy to pomaks.
In Bulgaria we all speak the same dialects - no matter if we are Christian or Muslim.

The difference comes from the geographical region, not from the religious affiliation.


You say that "pomak" is more Slavic than Bulgarian.

Bulgarian is a Slavic language
.
If you refer to the language of the Proto-Bulgarians - we still have no definitive proof what their language was.

Modern scholars define as Bulgarian the language in which all the Church Slavonic books were written in the 9-10-11 century. This is a Slavic language. Moreover they define the dialects of Solun as the basis of the Church Slavonic.

I am aware that the pomak people in Turkey do not identify themselves with Bulgarians.
That is why you do not define the language you speak as Bulgarian.

But again the problem here stems from the religious affiliation.
As we all know, the religion was the defining factor until the beginning of the 20th century.
Bulgarian was equal to Orthodox Christian and Muslim was equal to Turk.
It was religion that was the predominant factor in people`s lives as most of them were illiterate.
But since the introduction of the education in the 20th c, a lot of people started to realize that Muslim is not the same as Turk and Bulgarian is not the same as Christian.


So Rupchos dialects cannot be claimed as pomak language.
Remember that the Christians from this region even had the Bible translated in Rhodope dilect at the beginning of the 19th century in order to replace the Greek language in their churches :)



 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: valya_bl on May 26, 2010, 23:32
А аз като не мога да се включа на английски??  Нима помаците в България не са българи??? Та какви други могат да бъдат, освен българи??? И на какъв друг език трябва да се говори, ако не на български???Нима българският език не им е майчин език??? На английски ли искате да си общувате??? О, заблудени!!!Нали всеки трябва да говори на майчиния си език, па тогава на английски ако ще...Не разбрах много от тази дискусия, няма да седна да превеждам, но ако някой се срамува от майчиния си език, наистина е грях. Поне хората,които аз познавам, моите приятели, не са такива.ПОправете ме ако греша. Sorry, но няма да пиша на нито на латиница , нито на английски. (ахглийския ми не е толкова силен:))
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: valya_bl on May 26, 2010, 23:41
И да допълня- защо се включих: тои израз-"Pomak language" , ме озадачи. Според мен помаците навсякъде  говорят майчиния си език , а не "помашки". Ако са в България, логично е този език да е българския, респективно - в Гърция-гръцки и т. н.... За какво изобщо е тази дискусия??? 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Шали on May 27, 2010, 00:15
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А аз като не мога да се включа на английски?? ...Sorry, но няма да пиша на нито на латиница , нито на английски. (ахглийския ми не е толкова силен:))

На главната страница на сайт-а се извеждат последните активни теми от форума. Ако сте го разгледала в цялост, ще сте видяла, че има раздели на различни езици. Тази дискусия конкретно е от раздела на английски. Който може и иска, пише на чужди езици. Търси се по-широк обхват на потребителски профил на участниците. За теми на български език - цък  (http://www.pomak.eu/board/) :)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on May 27, 2010, 04:52
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А аз като не мога да се включа на английски??  Нима помаците в България не са българи??? Та какви други могат да бъдат, освен българи??? И на какъв друг език трябва да се говори, ако не на български???Нима българският език не им е майчин език??? На английски ли искате да си общувате??? О, заблудени!!!Нали всеки трябва да говори на майчиния си език, па тогава на английски ако ще...



Валя,

Дискусиите на английски ги водим с помаците от Турция.
Тези, които са родени в Турция вече второ и трето поколение не говорят добре български, също така повечето от тях не четат кирилица. Това са хора, чиито дядовци и прадядовци са се изселили в Турция в края на 19 в - нач на 20 в и много от които никога не са се връщали в България.
И тъй като ние в България пък не знаем турски, единствения начин да се разберем и да комуникираме е през английския.

Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: tangrabg on May 27, 2010, 08:00
    When I was  a military, we had one Pomak. Another soldier had called him "Turk". Pomak,  as if accidentally killed him during military exercises. So much for the Turks  ...
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: valya_bl on May 27, 2010, 08:01
Здравейте, разбрах ви. Аз подозирах, че има такава идея, дано да е полезно това , което правите.Успех!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 27, 2010, 08:44
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What exactly do you mean?

I exactly mean our example which is corrected by yourself


Мойно
Мойне
мойна

Are these mentioned as a grammer rule in bulgarian schools ? Absolutely not!
 
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I expect you to be more academic. Try to expose here a clear and logical concept. Throwing the question "Pomak language?" and just repeating "it exists, it exists, it exists..." without any scientific explanation is a little bit childish!

Tons of examples exist. If you dont wanna to evaluate them than what can i do ? For example one of them appears on top   
 
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The Bulgarian-speaking Christians speak that Rup dialect from many centuries - long before the term Pomak appears

Yep correct, The Slavic-speaking Christians speak that Rup dialect from many centuries - long before the term Pomak appears and
Rup carries archaic forms that points to (mostly) slavic and thracian descandants of pomaks. Official bulgarian language was created in the late 19th century so rup has been exist before. About most christians who speak same language like pomaks would be forcefully baptised pomaks or christian minority whose language requires adaptation with absolute majority that is pomaks   
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Bulgarian written language is codified more than eleven centuries ago, it went through many transformations and even today its dialects are 90% relevant to the official standard.
 
So indeed many times it requires interpreter!
 
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your forum


Not my own forum only my people's forum

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Валя,
Дискусиите на английски ги водим с помаците от Турция.
Тези, които са родени в Турция вече второ и трето поколение не говорят добре български, също така повечето от тях не четат кирилица. Това са хора, чиито дядовци и прадядовци са се изселили в Турция в края на 19 в - нач на 20 в и много от които никога не са се връщали в България.
И тъй като ние в България пък не знаем турски, единствения начин да се разберем и да комуникираме е през английския.

Бояне,
благодаря за информацията, която ни даваш. Много е полезна. Hие като помаците които живеят в турция така мислим. Аз исках английски че без особено усилие този език може да бъде разбран от всеки. 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: rado on May 27, 2010, 09:15
Направо избихте рибата с израза славянски език. Май сте пропуснали няколко столетия презкоито прото- славянския се е разделил на отделни днешни езици принадлежащи към славянското езиково семейство. Към които безспорно принадлежи и българският език с всичките си диалекти. Няма славянски език без диалекти и във всеки един език един или повече от тези диалекти е положил основата на сегашните литературни езици в славянските държави. Това не прави диалектите маловажни и не ги отделя от общите граматични и морфологични принципи на всеки отеделен език. Така, че правенето на език от Рупчоските говори е несериозно и смешно. Самия Рупски говор се говри във широк ареал както от християни така и от мюсюлмани от Старнджа до Чеча и от Гюмюрджинско до Тракия, а и в северна България сред българите католици. Ако говорим за единен помашки език, то тогава директно се изключват ловешките помаци, чийто диалект е към северните български говори и по специално към преходната балканска група- т.нар. Галатски говор. Така че нека се опознаваме като приятели, а не да се опитваме да издигаме несъществуващи граници от които нито християни нито мюсюлмани имат или ще имат някаква полза. А що се отнася до израза славяно- говорящи това значи от Воронеж до Адриатика и Бяло море, От Юлиянските Алпи и река Одра  до Урал, че и нататък всички тези хора, чиито езици са със славянски произход  могат да използват този израз за техните днешни национални езици. Поздрав.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Сидхарта on May 27, 2010, 09:21
Една не малка част говори на македонският диалект-Бабечанският е такъв ако не се лъжа.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 27, 2010, 09:50
Dear brother Boyan and ofcourse other respectful friends.

My arguments was written for reminding the presence of Pomak people in Turkey and how they thinking of. They need to take into consideration. Please do not think unilateral.
We would like to turn your attention that we are sensible to maintain our Pomak identity.

I agree the majority of your espressions. But our statement convey our concerns. 
Not denying of our Pomak identity as a historical reality is enough for us.
Pomak intentions of separatism has not been anywhere. 

We define our language as “Pomaski ezik” in Turkey not Bulgarian. Also we define ourselves as Pomaks.  This is the simple reality from the point of an ordinary Pomak mentality  in Turkey.

If you are sensitive in your side, we are also sensitive in our side. Pomaks are not officially accepted in Turkey. In the same way in Bulgaria. All rhetorics about no existency of such a people called Pomak. In Turkey you are pedigree Turk and in Bulgaria you are pure Bulgarian.

We are an intersection of  two opposite directions.  I suppose that the two country have agreed that Pomaks in Turkey  must become Turk, but Pomaks in Bulgaria is Bulgarian. We do not have any other way? Preserving our Pomak identity?

We just want to live in the democratic countries and to preserve our own culture. That’s it.
Are we saying something different?  Such as separatism, federalism or autonomy. No such thing.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 27, 2010, 16:14
Our discussion language is english. Usage of other languages are not allowed here!
 
Konumuz pomak dilinin varlığıdır. İngilizce haricindeki diller ile yorumda bulunmanıza izin verilmemektedir!
 
Темата е свързан с помашки език и Забранено е използването на други езици освен английски!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Ерол on May 27, 2010, 16:34
I haven't read the whole topic, if I say something repeated I beg you excuse me  
I wouldn't say that the Pomakian language exists, we all now that it's a Bulgarian dialect. In fact, it is called Rupian dialect (Рупски диалект) and if you search in wikipedia you'll find a lot of information about this dialect and the regions were it's spoken.
If I say that I wouldn't like the Rupian dialect to be an official language, maybe plenty of you would jump against me. But I am persistent to my opinion.
Maybe in a three centuries period of time the Pomakian way of speaking will be so changed that could be considered as an alternate language, and it is then when it should be considered an official language. Up to now it's been considered a dialect and I have nothing against that. I don't see the point of making a new language official as it would die in a very short period of time, and it will end the same as it is now.
Let's take for example India, this country has MILLIONS of dialects (literally) and there are hundreds of this dialects which die EVERY DAY. If they made official every single dialect in that country, what would be the aim of that?  Or even if they didn't make official every dialect they have, even if they made official only the most spoken dialects, that country would have thousands of official languages, and who's going to study all that philologies? In the end, there is no point of that, just a waste of time, in my opinion.
Many of you would disagree with me, but I don't care, I really think that there is no need to make official a language which is considered a minor dialect.
I'm not saying that I wouldn't be happy if that happened, what I'm saying is that I don't see the point of doing this.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 27, 2010, 17:15
Aspects of Multilingualism in European Border Regions
 
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg697.imageshack.us%2Fimg697%2F563%2Fclipboard01cb.png&hash=f21de7b397dd6fcbc1e3296c6d71c0df271718ac)
 
Eastern Macedonia and Thrace, Lublin Voivodeship and South Tyrol
 
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg155.imageshack.us%2Fimg155%2F1261%2Fclipboard02w.png&hash=f8e25a8c7d34c268018c0aab01d45281221a91e0)
 
ISBN 978  - 88  - 88906  - 34  - 8
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Ерол on May 27, 2010, 17:35
I'm sick and tired to listening of nonsenses. Another book in which the author meant what he wanted without being informed of anything.
Anyway, we are already accustomed!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on May 27, 2010, 18:41
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We define our language as “Pomaski ezik” in Turkey not Bulgarian. Also we define ourselves as Pomaks.  This is the simple reality from the point of an ordinary Pomak mentality  in Turkey.


Dear ago Mustafa,

I really really admire that you have preserved for over a century the way your parents and grandparents spoke.
And I know why you call that language pomak - because it`s only pomaks that live in Turkey and that speak it.
It`s the same situation in Greece, they have no idea how Bulgarians speak and that`s why they call it pomak language there too.

But when it comes to Bulgaria, where this language originated, the situation is different.
We cannot say that it is pomak language, because in Bulgaria Christians and Muslim speak the same dialect.
So every time a Christian hears that his language was called pomak, that only increases the hostility towards us.
We don`t need more hostility between the two confessional groups in Bulgaria.

From linguistic point of view, that is just a dialect of Bulgarian.
In Bulgaria there`s many many dialects. We cannot start saying that they are different languages, because they all follow grammatical and syntax rules of the Bulgarian language.


And if we have to be objective, we cannot define it as pomak in Bulgaria, as more Christians than us speak the same dialect. That is why we call it Rhodope or Rupchoski (Rupski) dialect.

Take a look and you will see that Christians speak the same way as we do:

http://www.napenalki.com/ (http://www.napenalki.com/)




Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Националист on May 27, 2010, 18:50

 „О, ти неразумни юроде, поради что се срамиш, болгарин да се наричаш“ Паисий Хилендарски


Hello dear brothers from Turkey. For me you are Bulgarians, so when I write it, I mean you. The separatism is in our blood, it's part of the character of Bulgarians. You see, if Turks had 500 years Byzantine slavery (just let suggest), and have done some Turks Christian, today Turks would be proud, because they have many religions. This is because Turks like their selves, and they are proud of their history and past, although they have bad periods too. We, Bulgarians are not like them. We set on first place "me" and "my wife/husband", others can starve, can stay out of water, but they are not important. Well, may be you are not this kind of person, may be I'm not too, but this is because we are bred people. Nowadays Bulgarians are separated on 3 groups - casual Bulgarians; Macedonians - citizens of FYRO Macedonia; and you - muslim Bulgarians.
 
Now let start talking about the topic. "Помашки език", please use Cyrillic, can exist only like a dialect of the Bulgarian language. Why? Because it is Bulgarian language in its roots. Every region has it's own dialect and it's no problem to exist. The problem is when you people, come here start explaining us some "true" . How dare you to say that you speak Bulgarian language when you haven't been in Bulgaria for more than 100 years? You add Turk words in this language, you change some words and letters. You can't read in Bulgarian, you even don't know the alphabet. In the other hand are the Pomaks in Bulgaria. They listen Bulgarian TV, read newspapers, they speak at home a language that is dialectical, but 100% Bulgarian. I'm sure you don't know, but there are Bulgarians in Banat, Hungary, they don't speak our language, they write on Latin alphabet, they call their language "Banat Bulgarian", but they know that even changed somehow, this language is Bulgarian and they have to keep it. Today they don't write their newspapers on "Banat Bulgarian", because in XXI they learn to write and read on native Bulgarian. You should do it too. It's normal that you have changed your language through the years abroad, but it's all your problem that you don't speak your native language. Don't tell others to learn your language, learn the language of others !

I hope you will understand me correctly, I don't have nothing against you, I just want to help you find the right way.


PS: Bogutevolu, if you want to see some books of Bulgarian, I can give you some links for books written for people whose native language is Turkish, here in Sofia, there are many people from Turkey coming to study here so I can give you pictures of their books so you will see how Bulgarian is this language you call "Pomashki"

ПС: Исках първото изречение да е в курсив но явно HTML тагове нещо не работят.
Title: Re: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: bricktop on May 27, 2010, 18:55
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Most of the bulgarian racists define macedonian as bulgarian (soon they 'll begin to qualify serbian as a subdialect of bulgarian   ) but as we know there are so many differencies between them. With simple logic we can easily define rhodopean tongues as like as a language. If macedonian is an accepted language by linguistic scientists, pomak language would be accept as a language. M i right ?

"The Macedonian`language is a dialect of the Bulgarian but there is too much politics involved in that issue. For example the lang. spoken in Quebec is French dialect and noone ever doubted it. The Macedonian dialect is spoken not only in FYROM and the geogrphical region of Macedonia, but also in the areas of Kjustendil, Trun, and Samokov for that matter. And tose have never been considered part of Macedonia region, on the contrary in fact.
As for the Pomak language, I feel it is a blend of Slav and Turkish. The word `bubaiko`(dad, father) for example, comes from the Turkish ``buba``(dad, father), if I am not mistaken. If Pomak have decided to call it Pomashki, it is their choise. I do not see any problem with that.
Anyway, as Sir W. Churchill said: The Balkans have soo much history, they cannot handle it:)

Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Nazmi on May 28, 2010, 05:34
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Dear ago Mustafa,

I really really admire that you have preserved for over a century the way your parents and grandparents spoke.
And I know why you call that language pomak - because it`s only pomaks that live in Turkey and that speak it.
It`s the same situation in Greece, they have no idea how Bulgarians speak and that`s why they call it pomak language there too.

But when it comes to Bulgaria, where this language originated, the situation is different.
We cannot say that it is pomak language, because in Bulgaria Christians and Muslim speak the same dialect.
So every time a Christian hears that his language was called pomak, that only increases the hostility towards us.
We don`t need more hostility between the two confessional groups in Bulgaria.

From linguistic point of view, that is just a dialect of Bulgarian.
In Bulgaria there`s many many dialects. We cannot start saying that they are different languages, because they all follow grammatical and syntax rules of the Bulgarian language.


And if we have to be objective, we cannot define it as pomak in Bulgaria, as more Christians than us speak the same dialect. That is why we call it Rhodope or Rupchoski (Rupski) dialect.

Take a look and you will see that Christians speak the same way as we do:

http://www.napenalki.com/ (http://www.napenalki.com/)

  Here in our site www. pomak.eu- discussions and traditions are fine.
 The our members forum us nave respect with that.
 Thanks for normal discussions,and needet more fakt and opinion.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: aroxol1979 on May 28, 2010, 10:03
Hey,  :)

1.Greeks came in Thrace arround 700 B.C. (they destroyed our Beautyfull Troia) but they gave also.

2. Bulgars came in Thrace arround 600 A.C. they destroyed many villages, but they gave also.

3. Turks came in Thrace arround 1200 A.C. they destroyed but they gave also.

4. Pomacks or Ahrianes (they were called so "agrianes-achrianes" in the ancient world) or Ahrensky were living in Thrace beforeany other race (greeks,  bulgars, turks), they were one of the Thracian Tribes.

They had their own language and it was Thracians language and their own Gots before they become Christians or Muslims and maybe greeks-bulgars -turks.

I dont think that its right to try, to show that ahrianes-pomaks-thracians are closer to greece to bulgaria or turkey, i think we should love our people, our history, our way of living, our land Thrace and try to find many of our common thinks and not thinks they make us something else like greeks bulgars or turks.

Many of what we have is coming from these three (greeks turks bulgars) and many they got is coming from us.

But one is for sure, all we want to stay and find our place in History as Ahraines-Pomaks and Trueborn Thracians.

Thank u all.
;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 28, 2010, 10:41
 
1) A little anecdote:

Recently one of my relatives named Nedim has told me that: when the (Turkish) immigrants came from the Bulgaria on 1989 year, He had wanted to help them. So he had spoken them in his Pomak tongue. They  had surprised and pulled themselves back. My relative had asked “Why do you hasitate?” Then they had said that “this is the Russian language what you speak.”
 
What this means to you? Is it really identical our tongue with official Bulgarian.?
 
 
2) Some excerpts from promacedonia.org:

http://www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/st_2_b_izt_3.htm#smoljanski (http://www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/st_2_b_izt_3.htm#smoljanski)
 
“1.  С м о л я н с к и  г о в о р”

“5. Характерна и занимлива фонетична особеност на смолянския говор е и т. нар.  а к а н е  — изговор на неударено o като а: вадѝца, гòрạ—гạрѝца, кạбѝлạ, дạшòл, гạлềм, ạфчềри, ạтѝде, мạмà. Тая особеност се среща в речта на помашкото население в южната част на говора и много напомня южноруското акане. В смолянския говор обаче това акане се явява само пред ударена сричка. След ударена сричка o се редуцира в у (мàслу, жèлну), т. е. изговаря се, както в повечето български говори. Интересно е, че наред с акавия изговор на неударено o ce среща в няколко случая акав изговор и вместо у: ạхàпạ (ухапа), стạдèнạ, кạрбàн (курбан).

6. У помаците, и то най-вече в южната част на смолянския говор, пред плавните съгласни р, л, когато са след съгласна, се изговаря слабо тъмно а, та се получават форми, напомнящи руското пълногласие: вạрêтèно (вретено), сạрềдạ (сряда), сạрèбру, бạрàдвạ (брадва), сạтạрѝжену (стрижено), тạрồн (трън); пạлềвạ (плява), мạл’ềку (мляко), хạлềп, кạлềште (клещи).”

2.  Ш и р о к о л ъ ш к и  г о в о р

1. Редукция на неударените предни гласни е и и в ерова гласна: лѝцъ (лице), нъ пòвнạ, тòй отѝдъ дạ бèръ грòздъ; ỳлъцъ (улица), грàнъцъ (граници), дрèбнъ кàмънъ (дребни камъни), крàвъ, въсòк, жèнъ (жени). След задните палатални съгласни к’, г’, х’ обаче няма редукция: рồк’и, нòг’и, снồх’и. Тая особена, необикновена за българския език редукция напомня донякъде южноруската.”

We think that these features remains from Slavic Smolyani clan. We can meet on the base of Slavness but we definitely don’t come from Proto-Bulgarian origin. So there will be some differencies. But this fact what we say does not show us that we are separatist.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 28, 2010, 11:30
We live in Turkey under influences of  its culture. Our tongue is unlike to Turkish. However nearly almost Turkish academicians in single discourse say that you are from Kuman and Pecenegs. Pomaks living in Greece always listen that you are descendants of the great Alexander. Of course in Bulgaria have been stressed that you are pure Bulgarian.

We are not under the influence of Bulgaria nor Greece. I had thought that Pomaks are Turkish origin until 45 of my age. But through on my own research from world’s resorces, I saw that the whole states there Pomaks live in have been seeing this issue in distortion from their point of view. 

This was a very traumatic experience for me. This is why describe myself as a Pomak. Because we are an important community in Turkey in population 300 000 to 600 000 mentioned in academic circles.

This result is not given by hand to me but I have been reached my own conclusion. Reflects our reality. Non political but personal. We are not politicians and we do not want they decide on us.

But we are open to develope our ideas. Certainly new information will change our thoughts. We are always open to discusse. We do not have rigid ideas.

I would like to thank to my brother Boyan who understand me.
 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 28, 2010, 12:31
Dear “Националист”

* How dare you to say that you speak Bulgarian language when you haven't been in Bulgaria for more than 100 years? You add Turk words in this language, you change some words and letters.”

My ancestors come  from Rhodopes a century ago but we did not forget our language and never change it. Since then we have protected our tongue. Our people may be now bilingual. But Turkish words in our tongue is the heritage of Ottoman period. The turkish words what we use have different pronounciation.


* You can't read in Bulgarian, you even don't know the alphabet.

I can read in Bulgarian in cyrillic but I need many more exercises completely understanding of  media languge. 

Fort the subject of Bulgarian alphabet: you have  4 distinct alphabet in my opinion.
Big block letters, small block letters and, big handwriting letters and small handwriting letters are more confused to me in fact.

* PS: Bogutevolu, if you want to see some books of Bulgarian, I can give you some links for books written for people whose native language is Turkish, here in Sofia, there are many people from Turkey coming to study here so I can give you pictures of their books so you will see how Bulgarian is this language you call "Pomashki"

I will be very pleased for your help to me. I am studying for 1-2 years. I reached to a certain level but I should have come a long way. I have read many articles in internet about Bulgarian language in English.

I have a Bulgarian grammar book in Turkish.  A friend of mine lent me a big dictionary that very useful for me. A publication of Academy of Bulgarskata Naukata.  I was out there thousands of  sentences.  I have several practical talking boks.

Also my mother teached me Pomak language that her tongue. This is mostly based of Central Rhodopian Lakavitsa village (of Luky) dialect that is spoken in our village.  I have prepared a small dictionary of 1500 words by mother’s mouth.  We have developed ths dictionary. Now it reached nearly 6000 word.

These are the studies that I have done for learning my language.
And I welcome for new sources which you offer.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: sioz on May 28, 2010, 14:49
My opinion is if there are many slav languages lıke a slovakian, serbian bulgarian russian etc. why not to be a pomak language. I believe that pomak language is the separate language lake other slavanian languages (not Bulgarian regional dialect languages like a shop or other dialects).. As I know the gramer of this language is compleatly different from Bulgarian language. Can anybody explain to me "kutro kopele si ti" how you can translate it into Bulgarian and how is seems to be a part of Bulgarian language. Yes Pomaks was muslums in the past but now there are muslums cristians and other non religion people in BG TR and GR. This is my opinion.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Националист on May 28, 2010, 14:56
Very well, Bogutevolu!   You seem to be a person who wants to discuss. First, please make the difference between Bulgars and Bulgarians. Bulgars belong to the Mongoloid race, tribe which had a country on the east coast of the Black sea. On the end of their kingdom, they separated, and one of part of them about 10 000 - 20 000 with Khan Asparuh came to the Balkans about 630 year. Look at the numbers again, and imagine the lots of Slavs living there. In the beginning Bulgars were the only rulers of the new country, but from 700 to 830 year Slavs started to integrate in this country and in the end of the VII century the Slavic language was adopted like an official, because most of the people were Slavs. In the 852 when Car Boris I is the ruler of Bulgaria, there ware no more Bulgars and Slavs, they have flow together in one - Bulgarians, with Slav language, Slav character, only without common religion. Some people were praying in Bulgar Gods, some on Slavic ones. The main reason to become a christian country was to unite all people in one religion. The Bulgar religion survived only because of the "father's principe" - kids take the religion of the father. So in 862,  Boris I united all of people in the christian religion, without exeptions. After the the fall of his son - Boyan Rasate, who wanted to move back on the different religions, there were other religions in Bulgaria except Christianity. You see, there are many scripts about this time, Thracians are not mentioned anywhere, because they didn't exist in this time. Just see the time map and you will see that it is impossible to talk about Thracians and muslim people in the Balkans in this period, just think about these - the Conversion, Tsar Simeon I of Bulgaria, Byzantine Empire, the Crusaders.... There were no Muslim people in the Balkans before the Ottoman empire. You are just Bulgarians who became Muslim in the period of Ottoman occupation, who escaped from Bulgaria, because of the inhuman politicians in the period of communist slavery. This is the true for me, I don't understand you why you are shamed, because you have been Christians and you want to find "a calf under the ox", like we Bulgarians say. You are not criminals, because of your ancestors who have been  forced to became Muslim, it just a fact. You should know, that despite all this facts you are nonetheless Bulgarians from us and you have the same rights like us. We have to support you and let you learn about your roots, and don't threat you like "different" because you have different faith. It's all in your hands, if you want to know us, your and our language, if you want, we are obliged to help you.   

PS: About the books, these days I'm really busy, but the next week I will try to find something.
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Националист on May 28, 2010, 15:03
... Delete from Admin..

I can give you too some phrases, from my ancestors form Odrin /Edirne/ and Nish which you will never tell me what means, but they speak Bulgarian too...
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: sioz on May 28, 2010, 15:26
I dont like nick names like a nasionalist, komunist, cristian, muslum,socialist. All thiese names are owned from people who are prejudiced with ethnic, politic religiuys and other non human behaviors. If you want to understen Pomak language You have to learn or to live in with Pomak peoplei Once more I think that Pomak language is more similar to Russian or rossian dialect language than Bulgarian language. I am not academic people ,I dont know the history (I do not care about the history) but I write what ı think. I havae many many friend Bulgarians, Pomaks Turks and no one are care how you feel your self. They are all think lake me " if you are honest person it is OK for me" . Not care what is your nation or origin. İs it true?
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Националист on May 28, 2010, 15:42
I won't comment your nickname, I will just explain what means mine - person who loves his country. I don't see anything bad in this. About the dialect... excuse me, but you are talking nonsense. There are no Russians in the Rodops. BELIEVE ME!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: rado on May 28, 2010, 15:57
    ..........   It is nothing new. Variations with language  can be many and different and they not make dialects different languages. There  are grammar, morphology and many other things which define language.  Not only vocabulary fund.  If I say something in my dialect no one normal  young Bulgarian can understand me, it is not because my dialect is not Bg, but  for these young people are affect from literature language more than our grandparents.

„Ди жъ wрьiш? Нъ Щоу зъ щьi.” 



Ву желъм здраwi нъ сьiнцъ ву!

Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: pisatel on May 28, 2010, 17:34
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Съюз на Писателите в България
THE WRITER`S UNION OF BULGARIA

ПИСАТЕЛИТЕ са ПРОРОЦИТЕ на ЧОВЕЧЕСТВОТО!
ПИСАТЕЛ  Е ТОЗИ, КОГОТО СМЯТАТ ЗА ТАКЪВ !

П О К А Н А

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в сградата на ”Посолство на Мира” към Световната Обединителна Организация:
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Темата за м. май е: ``Гуманизм человеколюбия``. Гледи и слушай нас на живо по Интернет на този адрес; http://www.bnptv.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=425:2009-09-30-13-35-59&catid=64:kulturasp&Itemid=121 (http://www.bnptv.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=425:2009-09-30-13-35-59&catid=64:kulturasp&Itemid=121) ;
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bogutevolu on May 28, 2010, 17:46
I have read the historical event that you have mentioned. I hope your sources any time.
We support that the whole Bulgarian nation regardless of which religion must be united. Bulgarian Christian, Muslim and other believers must be respected for each other.
I am proud of my religion how were my ancestors in the past.
I have remember that source about  Christianization of Bulgaria. As if parallel to forcing Islamisation of Pomaks.                                                                                                                   
Christianization of Bulgaria                                                                                                                    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Bulgaria
“As Byzantine missions converted the Bulgarians, their forces encouraged the people to destroy the pagan holy places. Conservative Bulgarian aristocratic circles opposed such destruction, as they had led the spiritual rituals. In 865, malcontents from all ten administrative regions (komitats) revolted against Boris (now titled Knyaz), accusing him of giving them "a bad law". The rebels moved toward the capital intending to capture and kill the knyaz, and to restore the old religion.
All that is known is that Knyaz Boris gathered people loyal to him and suppressed the revolt. He ordered the execution of 52 boyars who were leaders in the revolt, "along with their whole families". “

Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: bricktop on May 28, 2010, 21:15
Man, the more I read the topic, the more I believe that how you call your language is a matter of choice. We should leave the language and dialect matters to the linguists and focus on what brings us together as people.
I am a Bulgarian city "boy" with roots from Vardar Macedonia. I was a child when we went for a brief holiday to a family friend's country house(разбирай - бунгалце) in Сърница. A village populated exclusively by Pomaks. The owner had no roots in the area, she was actually a Bulgarian jew from German descent - Tanti(aunty from German) Ljuba. During our stay there, misteriously, every morning there were a jug of fresh milk and a bowl of freshly made yougurt(квасено млеко, как му викаше баба ми, македонката:) left at the door step of the "house"(shack actually). These were not gifts from God, they were gifts from the local people. Mind you, we were complete strangers, people that no one knew, saw, or ever had heard before....and still.
Maaan, I still crave the taste of that milk and yougurt:)
A little off-topic, but emotional:)
Cheers everyone!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Adrenalin on May 28, 2010, 22:24
They talk in the different regions differently, as well all think that pomak language is talked truly in their own district :)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Беглик on May 29, 2010, 11:52
Bricktop, maaan, when this took place? The shack was on the Sarnica side of the lake or on the other side where Romantica and Robotica are?
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Националист on May 29, 2010, 15:09
Bogutevolu, can you tell me something about your name, I know a person with name Bogutev, is this the root of you name?
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: erol.elis on May 30, 2010, 08:03
Actualy every body write something about the pomaks, but never ask what thing the most of them. I think that no small part of them are proud to be called POMAK, but most of them try to hide the own identy. We must try to help all to be proud that are POMAK. Religion are important and this is one of the pillars of the identy.
My own opinion is that the Ottoman imperial is the first democratic system of the world. Every body are citizen and no have difference between them, only the religion is one of the differnces, but never have problems.
Another important point is that never have any problems about the languages (tongues) and folklore & ethnic differences.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Nazmi on May 30, 2010, 08:11
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Bogutevolu, can you tell me something about your name, I know a person with name Bogutev, is this the root of you name?


Nacionalist,the personal information with our members is strongli sekret./ Please,chek forum pravila/
I dont knou ,if you have any question,please send mesage for him!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Nazmi on May 30, 2010, 08:29
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Ago Mustafa,

There`s a lot of things that are questionable here.

First lets start with what language do you define as "pomak" - the language from the Rupchos region, the language from Chech region, the language from Pirin region, the language from Lovech in Northern Bulgaria, Pleven or Teteven?
These are all distinctive regions where pomaks are found and we are all with different dialects.
The pomaks from Northern Bulgaria don`t speak like the ones in Rupchos.
The Pirin pomaks speak different than the Eastern Rhodope people.

If you consider the dialect Rupchos to be pomak language, then what language do the pomaks from the other regions speak?

Please keep in mind that a lot more Christians speak Rupchos dialect than Muslims, as the Rup dialects stretch from Western Rhodopes to Strandja and Sakar to the East.
So we canno claim that this is pomak language as the Christians living here speak the same dialect.

I understand that the situation in Turkey is different. There the only people speaking what you call "pomak" are namely the pomaks that were resettled after the fall of the Ottoman empire. You have no contacts with Christian Bulgarians from the Rupchos region. If you had contact, you would have seen that these Christians speak absolutely the same language that you speak. Of course due to the mass education and the influence of the media, the people living in the Rhodopi region tend to speak the official Bulgarian language. But the old people, both Christian and Muslim, speak still the dialects.


So Rupchos dialects are not privy to pomaks.
In Bulgaria we all speak the same dialects - no matter if we are Christian or Muslim.

The difference comes from the geographical region, not from the religious affiliation.


You say that "pomak" is more Slavic than Bulgarian.

Bulgarian is a Slavic language
.
If you refer to the language of the Proto-Bulgarians - we still have no definitive proof what their language was.

Modern scholars define as Bulgarian the language in which all the Church Slavonic books were written in the 9-10-11 century. This is a Slavic language. Moreover they define the dialects of Solun as the basis of the Church Slavonic.

I am aware that the pomak people in Turkey do not identify themselves with Bulgarians.
That is why you do not define the language you speak as Bulgarian.

But again the problem here stems from the religious affiliation.
As we all know, the religion was the defining factor until the beginning of the 20th century.
Bulgarian was equal to Orthodox Christian and Muslim was equal to Turk.
It was religion that was the predominant factor in people`s lives as most of them were illiterate.
But since the introduction of the education in the 20th c, a lot of people started to realize that Muslim is not the same as Turk and Bulgarian is not the same as Christian.


So Rupchos dialects cannot be claimed as pomak language.
Remember that the Christians from this region even had the Bible translated in Rhodope dilect at the beginning of the 19th century in order to replace the Greek language in their churches

 
 

 I think  this posting from B.Dobrev needet respekt and thinks about pomaks language. Afkourse,we needet some histori dokument with pomak language,but in this time we have just diskisons ,it is good for really pomaks peoplle in world!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: rado on May 30, 2010, 15:42
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: makebulgar on May 30, 2010, 19:59
Hello,
I was invited to   join the theme, and I will give my opinion.

I think that the   language of Pomaks is part of the Bulgarian dialects. I think Pomak name comes from the Bulgarian language   and is related to the adoption of Islam in part of the Bulgarians.


New   studies of Bulgarian and other Slavic languages show that their   ancestors were Scythian and Sarmatian languages. Of   all the Slavic languages in the languages of the southern Slavs, found   the most words from the so-called Eastern Iranian vocabulary. Eastern Iranian languages are the languages of the   Sarmatians - Alans, Bactrians/Balkharian,  horezemians and sogdiyans. Sarmatians   are peoples who invaded Europe from Central Asia in 300 BC, and they are not   descendants of the Thracians.

In this   background, the question of the origin of language of Pomaks should be   placed so.

Whence they came,   all those ancient Eastern Iranian and Aryan words (http://www.bulgaria-is-alive.com/ezik10.html) in modern   Pomak language???

It is impossible for them to come   to the Ottoman period, because they are not part of the Ottoman language   or modern Turkish. They are not part of   the Persian borrowings in the Ottoman language, but to this day some of   them are used in Bulgaria and in Pamir.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 30, 2010, 21:04
As i guess you're trying to estabilish a bond with iranian and aryan words. If you really want that you should look at bulgarian pronouns. Above all, bulgarian's first-person singular's (az/аз) not related with slavic grammer however it belongs to eastern iranian/aryan words so you are right. But my dialect (according to you) we use only (ya/я) for instead of (az/аз). Let me put it in that way. Why our dialect so different than referenced examples above that you share with us ? 
 
 
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.tinypic.com%2Fzk30nl.png&hash=f60606621d9288a6d6a9dbe757f11fe4ed281db1) 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hat on May 30, 2010, 22:13
 ::) :P
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 30, 2010, 22:14
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As i guess you're trying to estabilish a bond with iranian and aryan words. If you really want that you should look at bulgarian pronouns. Above all, bulgarian's first-person singular's (az/аз) not related with slavic grammer however it belongs to eastern iranian/aryan words so you are right. But my dialect (according to you) we use only (ya/я) for instead of (az/аз). Let me put it in that way. Why our dialect so different than referenced examples above that you share with us ? 
 
 
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.tinypic.com%2Fzk30nl.png&hash=f60606621d9288a6d6a9dbe757f11fe4ed281db1)


AZ is protoslavic. It is used in the slavic translation of the Bible by Cyril and Methodius. Only thing in common with the iranic word is their indoeuropean roots.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Шест хиляди on May 30, 2010, 22:28
According to the latest and deepest language research pomak lagnuage is much more closеr to the original turkish language than bulgarian one.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on May 30, 2010, 23:06
Balkandjiya, makebulgar was drew an anology about bulgarian with iranian and aryan words. Even though "az" an protoslavic word so as not! pomak language seems like different from official language again.
 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on May 30, 2010, 23:32
When Cyril translated bible in slavic in the 9th century he wrote:


Аз есъм Господ, Бог твой. Да не будет у тебе бози ини разве мене!


I am Lord, your God. Don't have other gods but me!


He didn't use Я but АЗ. His translation was not for Bulgaria but for Velika Moravia (present day Czech republic) It clearly shows that Slavs at this time used more АЗ than Я.  Я appeared later and was spread trough most Slavs. For example Slovenians say JAZ, in FYROM they say JAS. In most Bulgarian dialects to 19th century it was Я also but when the language was codified scholars chose the more ancient form preserved in some northern dialects- АЗ.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: makebulgar on May 31, 2010, 00:44
JAZ is also word in avestian (zoroastrian) language!

But   Pomak language has many basic words which have direct analogues in the   Eastern Iranian and Indo-Iranian languages. For example -

Debel, Den, Dripi, Dve, Kosa,
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on June 01, 2010, 03:01
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg156.imageshack.us%2Fimg156%2F6615%2Frodnar151.jpg&hash=aa2a55f61d0759ec90d7fd470c36759ec4fc13ec)


In Latin letters: Diavule! Hoa chalashtisuvaite sa da razvalim gospudyovitea praznici, da ni praznovat hristiyaneatea za Gospudya. Ahi hristiyeaninea, kakvo shtish da reachesh? Ti siga stanvash kail da sa radva dyavulat tvoya dushmanin sas tebea, pak da sa kahorva Gosput tvoyeat bubaiko i saibiya. Ia znaem kakvo shtish da reachesh: ia mlojish rabuteam i razvalem praznikat ut mlogu saklet, oti mi treava geacheanmek da si hraneam deacata, da plashtam vergii i ostaveam liturgiyata i gospudyavata didahia, treava mi da idam da naidam laf da lafovam sas noya chileak, oti shte da pode ta ni shtoa da mogam da gu zaftasam, imam saklet da mi svoarshi soya izmet ...



As we can see in this excerpt from the Damashkino, translated in 1858 from Greek for the Rhodope Christians, the language they speak is the same as the language of the Muslims in the same region.
It will be hypocritical to deny that this is one and the same Rhodope dialect, spoken by both confessional groups.

Rhodope Christians use йе and я in the same manner for indication of the personal pronoun "I".

The same pronoun я can be found all over Bulgaria - from Shopski region to the west to яз in the Eastern dialects.

The personal pronoun for the first person singular is
ja (я) instead of az (аз). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopi)


It`s interesting though that when it comes to indicating my and mine, the pronoun is the same in the entire Bulgaria мой, моя, мое, (мойо), мои. That`s what it is in the Rhodopes also. So any attempt to try to separate Rhodope as a different language non-related to Bulgarian, will fall short and will not withstand any linguistic analysis.

Rhodope dialects are Bulgarian dialects.


The other thing is the syntax - sentence construction.
No matter how many archaic words, turkish words and grammatical remnants we use in the Rhodopes, the sentences are constructed in the same manner as they are constructed in all Bulgarian dialects.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on June 01, 2010, 11:27
I beg to disagree so i know all turkish dialects of west to east anatolia but none of them has not got such a marked difference as like as south east slavic language group. On the other side, as you said modern bulgarian language was created in the late of 19.th century based on a few dialects from the area of veliko tarnovo and sofia regions. This means that rhodopean dialects were excluded m i right?   ;)  As a matter of fact many of the medieval travellers when they met with ex-lands of bulgaria and macedonia laid weight on "there had exist only different slavic tongues instead of a common language"
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: sirrio on June 01, 2010, 15:36
Toska, there is just one small detail that you have missed regarding the formation of the modern Bulgarian language. The dialects from the regions of Veliko Tarnovo and Sofia were chosen for a basis of the Bulgarian language because they have been considered to be the most literary accurate. This doesn't mean that the people in the other Bulgarian regions have spoken a language different from Bulgarian. ;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on June 01, 2010, 18:48
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As a matter of fact many of the medieval travellers when they met with ex-lands of bulgaria and macedonia laid weight on "there had exist only different slavic tongues instead of a common language"

These differences were still in place untill the beginning if the 20th century, when the mass education was introduced and the subjects started being taught in the modern literary Bulgarian.
You will fund these different dialects not only in the Rhodopes, but everywhere in Bulgaria. The Northern dialects are different from the Southern, which differ from the Eastern, which differ from the Shop  etc, etc.

There is a very good reason for these differences.
For 500 years there was no centralized use of Bulgarian language.
There was no administrative use of it and the Church used Greek after the fall of the Bulgarian Kingdom under Ottoman rule. The low mobility of the people within the state brought to the localized development and use of the language. Every small community developed and spoke in its own vernacular.

If you come to the Rhodopes you will see that this is true even for two neighbouring villages only a few kilometers apart. The religious affiliation played no part here. People spoke the same dialect, no matter Christian or Muslim. Take for example Chepelare - it was a mixed village. Still people there spoke the same dialect. So you cannot claim that there is such a thing as "pomak" language.
I know that`s how you call it in Turkey, because the community that speaks in it consists only of pomaks.
But in Bulgaria all people, Christians and Muslims speak the same language within the given area.
And that is why we call all these vernaculars "selski govori - village dialects" as opposed to the more prevalent official language, which is generally used in big towns. We are still joking in BG that if you put two old men from Sofia and from Burgas in the same room, they will need a translator to understand each other. So this different way of speaking is valid for all Bulgaria, not only for the Rhodopes.



(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg704.imageshack.us%2Fimg704%2F6479%2Fd0008001jpg.th.jpg&hash=40f7c6803c1055207464e8c628f8a52db3ad8caa) (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/d0008001jpg.jpg/)(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg697.imageshack.us%2Fimg697%2F8238%2Fd0006001jpg.th.jpg&hash=320ef3d32d0f89d597225a06e1efa1ed07d1b32c) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/d0006001jpg.jpg/)(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg121.imageshack.us%2Fimg121%2F2169%2Fd0007001jpg.th.jpg&hash=d5a29a3abba91fdf78cb095875de228b1337430d) (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/d0007001jpg.jpg/)

If you take a look at this, or for that matter if any Bulgarian looks at this, they will tell you they don`t understand it.
Yet this was the language of the land in the 11th-12th century. Since then the language has developed tremendously and today`s dialects and official language seem like light years apart from this old language. Yet if a trained linguist or philologist looks at it, they will easily show you the laws in which the dialects evolved from it.
The same happened in Greece. The old Greek was replaced with modern, because for 400-500 years of Ottoman rule, the spoken language got distanced form the old written Greek. Same happened in Bulgaria. That is why we have Old Bulgarian Language (Старобългарски език) and we have the New Bulgarian Language (Съвременен книжовен). Please do not mix the Old Bulgarian with the language of the Proto-Bulgars, as we still have no evidence how they spoke. The Old Bulgarian was the language that was developed here on the territory of the Balkan peninsula and which is a Slavic language.
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: rado on June 01, 2010, 19:12
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on July 01, 2010, 21:33
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(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.snimka.bg%2F6326%2F018906878-big.jpg&hash=59d266ce5e04a991c42f763b87080c5bdba4205f)
As we can see the difference between them here is minor. ;)
http://slavenica.com/ (http://slavenica.com/)


I designed the Pomatski converter of Slavenica.com to reflect actual usage of Pomak I found online. I hope you find it useful: For example, Pomaks who can not Cyrillic texts can paste it in and read it. If you have any suggestions on how to improve it, please let me know.

Pomak sample text from Cyrillic:

Sırceto me boli za moyne drugari,
  moyna drujina vıv zandani leji.
  Naşeti kleti mayki çerni kırpi nosyat,
  naşeti mili bratya tıjni pesni peyat.
 
  Iskam da si ida v moyno rodno selo,
  ta da si pregırna moyne mili sestri.
  Mıka mi na sırce za bılgarska zemya,
  za bılgarska zemya, za moyna drujina.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on July 01, 2010, 23:10
Slaven, Thank you for your interest. If you wanna to improve your project i'm ready to help you. As a matter of fact i had projects which are related with c# based text converter and online translator.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on July 02, 2010, 23:37
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_eFAhvWbX8bc%2FTCw5Zd99KYI%2FAAAAAAAAAFY%2F-a2rppOHnS8%2Fs1600%2FPAKETRA%2B1.jpg&hash=c4a363548527df910176238c87e1f82ba7760853)


I'm learning pomak language ;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 26, 2010, 20:43
Pomaski language now included with other Slavic languages on http://slavic-unity.com/viewforum.php?f=141 (http://slavic-unity.com/viewforum.php?f=141)

In addition, if Turkish language is selected, all Cyrillic on the forum automatically is converted to Pomak script:

Kaşa — blyudo, kotoroye pervonaçal’no yeto bilo obryadovoye, torjestvennoye yastvo, upotreblyayemoye v osnovnom na prazdnikah. V XII veke slovo «kaşa» daje bilo sinonimom slova «pir».

Welcome! Pomak interface is coming.
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on September 26, 2010, 23:20
Slaven;
Thanks for all ;) its a kind of means to an end for registering our language

 
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg715.imageshack.us%2Fimg715%2F5394%2Fpomxk.jpg&hash=4de61b50c95ae123ea86b9252d28f8cea633a701)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 27, 2010, 00:10
I will convert the Bulgarian localization to this Pomak script and then there will be a forum interface in Pomak. Of course it may need editing (which someone who speaks Pomak can do).  Since phpBB is one of the more popular forum scripts, it can be widely used.

Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 27, 2010, 00:14
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg443.imageshack.us%2Fimg443%2F7484%2Fslavlarbirligi.jpg&hash=c078743f8317cdf9733989d4c80e483bb6f65d1e) (http://slavic-unity.com/)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 27, 2010, 04:57
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you change some words and letters. You can't read in Bulgarian, you even don't know the alphabet.

Very well, you just proved the existence of Pomak language.

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It's normal that you have changed your language through the years abroad, but it's all your problem that you don't speak your native language. Don't tell others to learn your language, learn the language of others !

So why do you tell others to learn your language? It appears Pomaks in Turkey have another language, and that is their native language.

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I hope you will understand me correctly, I don't have nothing against you, I just want to help you find the right way.

Except you deny people the right to use their native language, which you admit is different than Bulgarian, so different that its speakers can not read Bulgarian.

This attitude is surely wrong. Nobody can deny anyone to use any language, thats simply wrong. Such an approach only causes resentment and anger.

It is also a fact that all Slavic languages are similar with minor grammatical variations but some substantial difference in writing systems. However, since they are called languages, it means even minor cases of difference can be termed 'language' rather than 'dialect'. Otherwise, you must accept that Bulgarian, Pomak, Polish and Czech are all dialects of one Slavic Language. You insist Bulgarian is a language not a dialect? In that case, lets have some respect for all language groups. Pomak language it is.

Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on September 27, 2010, 16:22
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Very well, you just proved the existence of Pomak language.

I don`t think so.

Quote
So why do you tell others to learn your language? It appears Pomaks in Turkey have another language, and that is their native language.

They speak the dialects from the different parts of Bulgaria they originated from. The Lovech Pomaks in Turkey speak a different dialect than the Macedonian Pomaks, yet different from the Rhodope Pomaks in Turkey. There is no one language, but different Bulgarian dialects.

Quote
Except you deny people the right to use their native language, which you admit is different than Bulgarian, so different that its speakers can not read Bulgarian.

I see you`re quite proficient in the history of the Bulgarian language... Think again! Аман от пишман разбирачи!
The modern Bulgarian language emerged in the mid 1800 as a synthetic language from all the dialects spoken in Bulgaria. It is written in Cyrillic. Pomaks in Turkey don`t study Cyrillic, that is why they cannot read Bulgarian. They speak the same dialects that are still spoken in Bulgaria by their former Christian neighbours.


Quote
It is also a fact that all Slavic languages are similar with minor grammatical variations but some substantial difference in writing systems. However, since they are called languages, it means even minor cases of difference can be termed 'language' rather than 'dialect'.


Eurica! Then we have 10 000 languages in Bulgaria as every village speaks differently. Hallelujah!
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 27, 2010, 17:21
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Then we have 10 000 languages in Bulgaria as every village speaks differently

Very well, if you want to make your own villiage's language, you should start publishing books, making websites, etc. And, if enough people are in your language group, I will include you in the list of Slavic lanuages. But I don't see you do it. But I do see Pomaks do it, so, yes, Pomaks have their own language.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on September 27, 2010, 18:33
In any case there exist several academical researches about pomak language. Dobrev, I guess you oversimplify the pomak language and differences between tongues and languages.
For example :
Supposing that i'm a croatian man and also i can clearly understand all bulgarian dialects by this way do i need to abandon my race and my native language ?

Be realistic ;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 27, 2010, 18:41
Today I had an angry Buglarian threaten me because I added Pomaski to the language list. Very sad.

Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: EvroPOMAK on September 27, 2010, 19:44
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Today I had an angry Buglarian threaten me because I added Pomaski to the language list. Very sad.
"Slaven", be glad and happy that you found and added to your vocabulary yet another linguistic richness and diversity !  ::)  8)  ;)
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on September 27, 2010, 20:06
Do not hesitate Slaven, soon we will begin to broadcast with our native language. Definitely, it's in the pipeline ;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: KaraIbrahim on September 27, 2010, 20:47
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Today I had an angry Buglarian threaten me because I added Pomaski to the language list. Very sad.



  Slaven, interesting to me is what are you threatened? Maybe a stabbing? >:(
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 27, 2010, 22:23
I have Pomatski on slavenica.com, and I think Poma-t-ski is the correct ending for the language name. Pomatski also appears to be more commonly used online in pages found by Google. We consider Turkish pages only, as the word Pomaski also is a Polish last name which mixes into the combined Google results.

pomatski About 2,700 results.
pomaski About 588 results.

There appear to be two ways to write Pomatski.

1. Using Turkish script. This writing style can be found online.

2. Using a Latin style stcript proposed for Pomaks in Greece.

I have added Cyrillic equivalents to the list found here: http://pomakdictionary.tripod.com/index/id9.html (http://pomakdictionary.tripod.com/index/id9.html)

А A a astávem (leave), arálo  (plough)
Ѣ Ä ä snäk (snow)  bäl (white), näm (dumb)
Б B b bólan (sick), bráshno (flour)
Ч Ch, ch chervén (red), chórna  (black)
Д D d dáskalie (teacher),  dórvo (wood)
Е E e pridávom(give in), péntzer (window)
Ф F f fátom (catch), fchéra (yesterday)
Г G g górlo (throat), garchíf   (bitter)
Х H h hránem (feed), hliap (bread)
Ъ Ï ï sïn (son), kïsmét (fate), pórvï (first)
И I i iglá (needle)  , itúi (here)
К K k kolíba (cottage), kósnitsa  (basket)
Л L l lazhítsa (spoon), láhna  (cabbage)
М M m myrísom (smell), mraviá (ant)
Н N n nebá (sky), nahódem (find)
О O o odvrástom (answer), ozlanítsa  (pillow)
Ъ Ö ö spöm (sleep), smöm (smile)
П P p praf  (straight), pot (street)
Р R r raká (hand), rámo (shoulder)
С S s slóntse (sun), spírom (find)
Ш Sh, sh shúshka (rubbish),  shápka (hat)
Т T t ténak (thin),   téle (calf)
Ц Ts ts tsístem (clean),  tsífte (couple)
ТЗ Tz tz sóltza (tear), amítzov (cousin)
Ђ J j jánar (wild plum), jümayiá (mosque)
Ј Y y yúme (name),  yátse (very)
У u umarén  (tired),  ustá (mouth)
Ѫ Ü ü chüvál (sack), klüch (lock)
В V v valésava (careful), vosá (wasp)
З Z z zólezo (iron), zamítom (sweep)
Ж Zh zh zholt (yellow), zhéni (women)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: sirrio on September 28, 2010, 13:10
Toska, няма проблем, че по погрешка си ми изтрил поста. Та въпросът ми беше за свастиките на аватара ти. Защо използваш такъв аватар?
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on September 28, 2010, 16:51
Of course pomak language does not exists. Pomaks speak different dialects of Bulgarian language. The idea of a Pomak language was born by the Pan Turkist who more and more to isolate Pomaks from their true relatives. They assumed that creation of a  pomak language is the first step. The second step is to proove that it is a turkic language with slavic influence. And like this slowly to assimilate pomaks in Turkey and Greece. This is so clear.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on September 28, 2010, 17:05
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In any case there exist several academical researches about pomak language. Dobrev, I guess you oversimplify the pomak language and differences between tongues and languages.
For example :
Supposing that i'm a croatian man and also i can clearly understand all bulgarian dialects by this way do i need to abandon my race and my native language ? Be realistic ;)


Toska, I am being realistic! And no - it`s no oversimplification.
The analogy with the pomaks that are outside Bulgaria is the same with the analogy with the Banat and Bessarabia Bulgarians, as well as the Bulgarians from East Serbia.
These were all groups which were not influenced by the modern Bulgarian language and they preserve the dialects that were spoken at the time they left Bulgaria.
The Banat Bulgarians migrated at the end of 18th-beginning of 19th c. They live in the region that was later divided between Romania and Hungaria. Like the pomaks in Turkey and Greece they are a Slavonic speaking minority among non-Slavonic majorities.
They still speak the Bulgarian dialects from the regions where they originated in Bulgaria.

This is not a different language, but dialects of the Bulgarian dialect continuum as they were spoken in 18th c.

Before you try to create a new language, read about the differences between the major Slavonic groups and you will see the characteristics of the Bulgarian continuum. The dialects you speak in Turkey are precisely from this Bulgarian continuum and not from some imaginary made-up language.
Take a look at the Banat Bulgarian - it is a dialect as it was spoken 200 years ago. I am sure you will understand most of it.

http://www.starbisnov.blogspot.com/


(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fbg%2Fe%2Fe9%2FNasa-glas.jpg&hash=9196d11ebe83fb9d356c4d02fe29d716f310ee7d)


I understand the reasons for your efforts to disaffiliate with the Bulgarians, but when that is done by denying the basic linguistic principles, it serves no good. I am aware that there were in the past a lot of frictions between the Muslim and Christian Bulgarians, but that doesn`t justify any effort to deny our Bulgarian ancestry.

Take any linguist proficient in Slavonic languages and he will tell you that what you speak is a Bulgarian dialect and nothing else. I understand that your call for a Pomak language sounds populistic and appealing to the people in Turkey, Greece and a particular minority in the Nevrokop, but I cannot agree with that.

The Christian Bulgarians still speak the same dialects like the Pomaks.
And these are Bulgarian dialects.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 28, 2010, 18:06
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The idea of a Pomak language was born by the Pan Turkist who more and more to isolate Pomaks from their true relatives. They assumed that creation of a  pomak language is the first step. The second step is to proove that it is a turkic language with slavic influence.

Actually, a study of Pomak shows it has more pure Slavic features than standard Bulgarian. That means Bulgarian was somehow corrupted (Simplified? Modernised? Turkified? Russified?) compared with Pomak language. And a casual review of postings about Pomak language on the net confirms that Pomaks are aware of this.

In looking at the Pomak latin script, it appears that there are several letters that don't exist in modern Bulgarian, but have Cyrillic equivallents. See this posting by a Slavic linguist. (http://slavic-unity.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=3134#p40702)

Historically, this has led to interest in the study of the Slavic heritage preserved by Pomaks. For example Veda Slovana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veda_Slovena) (1874) has gotten a lot of attention among Slavic scholars.

Another thing is clear as well. Unlike Bulgarians who use the name of the Turkik name "Bulgar", Pomaks have a Slavic name for themselves.

So who's promoting the Pan-Turkish agenda more? Bulgarians who call themselves with the name of a Turkish tribe of old, or Pomaks who use their own Slavic name?
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on September 28, 2010, 19:41
Quote
Actually, studying Pomak proves it has more pure Slavic features than standard Bulgarian

Absolutely true. Even the researchers whom i read point out that factor.

Quote
The Christian Bulgarians still speak the same dialects like the Pomaks. And these are Bulgarian dialects.

Being a bulgar? Firstly Let's describe the differences between nation, religion and language. According to me christians who live in rhodope mountains were possibly ancestors of muslims but that doesn't mean they are all bulgarians.

In the midst of all this if pomak language restructured i bet that it will not be fool-proofly as like as macedonian.


Here is an article which i found on e-library called "Bilingual speech and language ecology in Greek Thrace: Romani
and Pomak in contact with Turkish" by  EVANGELIA ADAMOU it's realted with Turkification of pomak language.

(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg826.imageshack.us%2Fimg826%2F9427%2Fcs1s.jpg&hash=e91682cf2cbd75045e1cafd6931f8ca2606387c2)

ATTACHMENT BELOW
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on September 28, 2010, 20:07
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Actually, studying Pomak proves it has more pure Slavic features than standard Bulgarian. That means Bulgarian was somehow corrupted (Simplified? Modernised? Turkified? Russified?) compared with Pomak language. And a casual review of postings about Pomak language on the net confirms that Pomaks are aware of this.

In looking at the Pomak latin script, it appears that there are several letters that don't exist in modern Bulgarian, but have Cyrillic equivallents. See this posting by a Slavic linguist. (http://slavic-unity.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=3134#p40702)

Historically, this has led to interest in the study of the Slavic heritage preserved by Pomaks. For example Veda Slovana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veda_Slovena) (1874) has gotten a lot of attention among Slavic scholars.

Another thing is clear as well. Unlike Bulgarians who use the name of the Turkik name "Bulgar", Pomaks have a Slavic name for themselves.

So who's promoting the Pan-Turkish agenda more? Bulgarians who call themselves with the name of a Turkish tribe of old, or Pomaks who use their own Slavic name?
 
I saw in my life time a foreigner to teach me who I am ??? You are russian, and you know nothing about us. Russians and their puppet polititions made enough troubles in the Balkans. Look your Russian language and history and please don't care about ours. Ok?
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: KaraIbrahim on September 28, 2010, 20:17
Slaven, I do not know whether you are familiar with Pomak speech in Bulgaria, but I feel like you know it only by Google.
  If you walk through Yakoruda, then through Chech and later in Central Rhodopes, will establish the following, in all places speak different dialekt.Pomaks in Yakoruda speaks as Christians  in Yakoruda, Muslims in Chech speaks equally with Christians in Chech.In Central Rhodopes pomaks and Christians also speaks equally.But between pomaks speech in Yakoruda,pomaks speech in Chech and pomak speech in the Central Rhodopesqor, or,if you prefer,pomak speech in Theteven Municipality-there are many diferences.And I ask the task-which one is "Pomak language and who is not is it?Or maybe  it's time to think about different dialects of Pomak language?
 
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 28, 2010, 21:48
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I saw in my life time a foreigner to teach me who I am ??? You are russian, and you know nothing about us. Russians and their puppet polititions made enough troubles in the Balkans. Look your Russian language and history and please don't care about ours. Ok?

Actually, I am not Russian. But I do know who you are: a chauvinist who doesn't like other Slavs. Also, you are a kind of guy who likes to tell other ethnic groups who live in other countries what to do. Why you think you have the right to tell Pomaks who don't even live in Bulgaria what to call their language?

Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 28, 2010, 21:49
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Slaven, I do not know whether you are familiar with Pomak speech in Bulgaria, but I feel like you know it only by Google.

I am not familiar with the language of Pomaks in Bulgaria, as I've never been to Bulgaria. But I have met Pomaks from Turkey, who tell met they are not Bulgarian and they don't speak Bulgarian.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on September 28, 2010, 23:18
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I am not familiar with the language of Pomaks in Bulgaria, as I've never been to Bulgaria. But I have met Pomaks from Turkey, who tell met they are not Bulgarian and they don't speak Bulgarian.
And I met a lot of Martians ;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Hashashin on September 28, 2010, 23:19
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Actually, I am not Russian. But I do know who you are: a chauvinist who doesn't like other Slavs. Also, you are a kind of guy who likes to tell other ethnic groups who live in other countries what to do. Why you think you have the right to tell Pomaks who don't even live in Bulgaria what to call their language?


Again speaking bullshit like usual.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on September 30, 2010, 13:17
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According to me christians who live in rhodope mountains were possibly ancestors of muslims but that doesn't mean they are all bulgarians.

Toska, that is quite a bold statement of yours.
Well, I have to prove you wrong.

There`s always been Christians in The Rhodopes.
And there`s tons of records that prove it. They even had their Christian religious books translated in the Rhodope dialect from Greek in the early 1800s. And as the Cyrillic alphabet was not yet revived and widely in use, their religious books were written with Greek letters.

Take a look. This is an article from the late 19th c on the Rhodope dialects. As you can see these dialects were spoken not only by Pomaks, but by Christian Bulgarians too.
Same language. Guess what it is?




РОДОПСКОТО НАРЕЧИЕ, ХР. ПОПКОНСТАНТИНОВ 1889 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/22545036/HrPopkonstantinov-Rodopskoto-narechie#keypeostkuiryxi0wve2ye)



   Die Rhodopemundarten der Bulgarischen - Родопските диалекти на българския език, Милетич Л., 1911 (http://www.archive.org/stream/dierhodopemundar00mileuoft#page/n3/mode/2up)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on September 30, 2010, 17:42
The Rhodope dialects of the Bulgarian language (http://www.archive.org/stream/dierhodopemundar00mileuoft#page/n3/mode/2up)

(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fia311026.us.archive.org%2FBookReader%2FBookReaderImages.php%3Fzip%3D%2F3%2Fitems%2Fdierhodopemundar00mileuoft%2Fdierhodopemundar00mileuoft_jp2.zip%26amp%3Bfile%3Ddierhodopemundar00mileuoft_jp2%2Fdierhodopemundar00mileuoft_0001.jp2%26amp%3Bscale%3D6.850715746421268%26amp%3Brotate%3D0&hash=ea144d767c5f213e67d546846f4dc581472f2e58)


http://www.archive.org/stream/dierhodopemundar00mileuoft#page/n3/mode/2up (http://www.archive.org/stream/dierhodopemundar00mileuoft#page/n3/mode/2up)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on September 30, 2010, 17:54
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Actually, a study of Pomak shows it has more pure Slavic features than standard Bulgarian. That means Bulgarian was somehow corrupted (Simplified? Modernised? Turkified? Russified?) compared with Pomak language. And a casual review of postings about Pomak language on the net confirms that Pomaks are aware of this.



Take a look at the Old Bulgarian Language and you will see why the spoken dialects are different than the modern Bulgarian. What some want to call now pomak language is actually the Old Bulgarian. And "casual reviews online" will not prove anything, cause nothing on the Balkans is casual.

Старобългарска граматика (http://www.scribd.com/doc/38473733/#%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%8A%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%9B-%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on September 30, 2010, 19:17
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Same language. Guess what it is?


Austrians are talking the same language as germans but if you ask them about their identy you will possibly get a quick response. They're all austrians ;)  As i said there exist gap between pomak language (granted that christians who live in rhodopes) and official bulgarian.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Dobrev on September 30, 2010, 20:49
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Austrians are talking the same language as germans but if you ask them about their identy you will possibly get a quick response. They're all austrians ;)  As i said there exist gap between pomak language (granted that christians who live in rhodopes) and official bulgarian.


Self identification has nothing to do with the linguistic characteristics of a certain speech.

And yes, there is a difference between the official Bulgarian and the Rhodope languages, cause they are dialects.

No matter what  part of Bulgaria you take - North, East, South, West - there is a difference between the spoken vernaculars and the official language. That is the relation "dialects:official".
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Sv on September 30, 2010, 21:58
The fact that some Pomaks consider themselves speaking Pomak and not Bulgarian doesn't change their ethnicity.
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on October 08, 2010, 10:31
i guess it depends on political decisions upon countries. If my memory serves me correctly czech people had almost forgetten how to speak their own language but during the foundation of czech republic, czech language was rebuilded by the the help of czech sheepmans who were still speaking fluent czech ;)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: sirrio on October 08, 2010, 10:43
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i guess it depends on political decisions upon countries. If my memory serves me correctly czech people had almost forgetten how to speak their own language but during the foundation of czech republic, czech language was rebuilded by the the help of czech sheepmans who were still speaking fluent czech ;)

This must be a kind of a joke  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on October 08, 2010, 11:04
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This must be a kind of a joke  ;D ;D ;D

Exactly, it's not just that ;)
Title: Ynt: Pomak language ?
Post by: Тоска on June 15, 2011, 19:32
An interesting approach from greek scholar.


(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg51.imageshack.us%2Fimg51%2F4745%2F99352691.jpg&hash=cbb961855b574ee89e50564c1a840d0877348a79)
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg27.imageshack.us%2Fimg27%2F8866%2F20782199.jpg&hash=71cf3a3c7d086d8f1b67026dcd67f85ec080b7f2)
(https://www.pomak.eu/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg87.imageshack.us%2Fimg87%2F8871%2F84975812.jpg&hash=2a8b3cbebdec5ea55cdf2b66cff93d53a3338b74)

Source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=krNzYfNNsEgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Clause+Linking+and+Clause+Hierarchy:+Syntax+and+Pragmatics&hl=tr&ei=9d_4TbOUNorasgaaoeWKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=krNzYfNNsEgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Clause+Linking+and+Clause+Hierarchy:+Syntax+and+Pragmatics&hl=tr&ei=9d_4TbOUNorasgaaoeWKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Title: Re: Pomak language ?
Post by: Nazmi on April 10, 2013, 04:20
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Some arguments:

Pomak language is between Bulgarian and Macedonian languages.
There are close relations but have many differencies with them.
Pomak language is more slavic than Bulgarian.
Pomak language has more preserved the Slavic purity than Bulgarian.
Pomak language belongs to the South-East Slavic group.
It is not easy to say that Pomak language is the same as Bulgarian.
Pomak language is more preserved in immigrants in Turkey.
Immigrants in Turkey do not define her own language as Bulgarian but Pomak language.
Rhodope region history has not always gone together with Bulgarian history.
Rhodope region is a combination point of the Bulgarian, Greek and Turkish cultures.
Therefore has it own richness and diversity.
Bulgarian language have created in 19. century as a syntetic language.
Under the German domination Czech language had death but was raised again.
Under the Arab domination Persi language had death along the 3 centuries, but poet Firdevsi has aroused the Persi language by Shahname.
And Ibrani language had dissapeared along the 2000 years but Israelis has resurrected this death language.
Pomak language is not too hard to standardize as a modern


We as Pomaks are aware of our diversity have not been any intention of separatism in the countries where we live.

V dneshno vreeme sega,dnes kogato se govorri za pomashki etnos se zabravq.???

  Ima li pomashki ezik,ili ne...?