Author Topic: Pomak language ?  (Read 49737 times)

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Offline Hashashin

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Re: Ynt: Pomak language ?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2010, 21:24 »
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Most of the bulgarian racists define macedonian as bulgarian (soon they 'll begin to qualify serbian as a subdialect of bulgarian   ) but as we know there are so many differencies between them. With simple logic we can easily define rhodopean tongues as like as a language. If macedonian is an accepted language by linguistic scientists, pomak language would be accept as a language. M i right ?ian
The language spoken in Macedonia and Bulgarian are mutually intelligible although in Macedonia many Serbian words were introduced. So they could be regarded as two sub groups of one language as British and American English.
Regarding to the language spoken by pomaks in Bulgaria. Pomaks in Bulgaria speak a dialect from the region they live. Teteven pomaks speak a Balkan mountain dialect as well as their christian neighbours. Pomaks from Nevrokop region as well as Babek pomaks speak a dialect of the Pirin dialectig group which is spread in south west Bulgaria. Pomaks from Chech can be put in the same group. Smolyan pomaks speak the same dialect as the Christisn population of Smolyan region. Of course every village has its own dialect but generally it is the same Rup dialect spoken by pomaks and christians in Smolyan region. So how could it be a separate language. Genarally pomaks speak the dialect or a sub dialect of the region they live. For example the dialect of Teteven and Nevrokop pomaks is very close to the standart Bulgarian language, much more closer than Shop dialect spoken in the surroundings of Sofia and the dialects of Vratsa and Vidin. Pomaks in Smolyan region speak the most different dialect but it is shared by christians there. So if we assume that Pomaks in Smolyan region speak a separate Pomak language, do their christian neighbours speak Pomak also? Why they speak Pomak if they are not Pomaks??  So as you can see we can't speak about a separate Pomak language. Pomaks in Bulgaria speak a dialect of Bulgarian shared by their Christian neighbours (Smolyan and Teteven Pomaks) and their own dialect which is very close to dialects speak by christians in the region (Nevrokop, Babek and Chech Pomaks).

Offline Тоска

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2010, 23:26 »
Balkandjiq, firstly this analize had taken from somewhere which 's possible to disprove of existence of pomak language. It may related with nacional policy. Rup dialect (according to you & many linguistic scientists) seems to differs from official bulgarian even macedonian. If you ask me which one i would prefer to define a separate language my answer will be the rup ;) nor macedonian or bulgarian

Offline Hashashin

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 08:25 »
But. Toska, Rup is spoken also by Christians in the region. How it could be a separate language and called Pomak language if it is spoken by Christians also ??? This is the question.

Offline Тоска

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 09:41 »
Don't forget that religion unify the nation like a language at least one of them strenghten the other one. For example bosniaks speak a serbo-croatian dialect but on the other hand their language determine as a separate language from serbian. Even there exist christian serbs and all of them are speaking the same language that is to say "Bosnian"  ;) 

Offline Hashashin

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 10:02 »
The case of the Bosniaks is very different. In the middle ages they had an independent and strong state. And their state religion was Bogomilism. During to Ottoman rule most of them converted to islam, but some converted to Orthodoxy, other to Catholicism. So these people who are called Bosnians serbs are bosniaks who converted to orthodoxy and bosnian croats are bosniaks who converted to Catholcism. In fact the Serbo-Croatian language is an artificial language which was created by Vuk Karadjich and his scholars in the early 19th Century. This language was based on the language spoken by the serbs and a great croatian influence. Gradually this language replaced local languages in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia. Because of this now this  three nations speak one language. If you go to some regions of Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia you still can hear the ancient languages of this people spoken there. They are clearly three separate slavic languages.
So the case of Bosnia is very very different from the case of Rup dialect.

Offline Тоска

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 10:22 »
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The case of the Bosniaks is very different. In the middle ages they had an independent and strong state. And their state religion was Bogomilism. During to Ottoman rule most of them converted to islam, but some converted to Orthodoxy, other to Catholicism. So these people who are called Bosnians serbs are bosniaks who converted to orthodoxy and bosnian croats are bosniaks who converted to Catholcism. In fact the Serbo-Croatian language is an artificial language which was created by Vuk Karadjich and his scholars in the early 19th Century. This language was based on the language spoken by the serbs and a great croatian influence. Gradually this language replaced local languages in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia. Because of this now this  three nations speak one language. If you go to some regions of Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia you still can hear the ancient languages of this people spoken there. They are clearly three separate slavic languages.
So the case of Bosnia is very very different from the case of Rup dialect.

Sadly, This is not a response to my question. I asked if existence of bosnian language and analogue case between them. Also rup is much more different from official bulgarian than difference of bosnian from serbian. Meantime using your own comments will provide us with invaluable information about what people in the bulgaria think about ethnic diversity ;)

Offline Hashashin

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 10:49 »
Ethnic diversity in Bulgaria is huge. More than 14 ethnic groups live here. Some of the like Gagauzs and Karakachans are almost extinct. But about the language. I don't think that Rup is a separate language. When I was in Xanthi and Kavala where pomaks speak pure Rup dialect I didn't have any problems with understanding them, neighther they to understand me, speaking standart Bulgarian. I had more problems with understanding people from Samokov and Vidin regions in Bulgaria than with pomaks in Greece. And of course I can't understand even 30% of the Trn regional dialect from western Bulgaria but it doesn't make it a separate language.
I hope that a linguist will take a part in this discussion, because you and me are amatiors in this field of study!

Offline Тоска

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2010, 16:22 »
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Balkandjiya,
As you can see many of them don't understand. And as you know majority of zlatograd is pomak;) Most important thing is a person who have got experience or wonder on various slavic dialects like you, would claim rup's a subdialect of bulgarian.  Clarity of dialect from a region requires at least % 70 -80 similarity with official language. I bet that zlatograd's is less than % 70-80  ;)   
 
Selected comments from zlatogradski dialect ?
 

 

Offline Hashashin

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2010, 16:54 »
But I will say again. Christians in this region also speak Rup. Do they speak pomak? Are they pomaks? But as I said better linguists to come. They could say more things than me.

Offline Тоска

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2010, 18:18 »
Christian serbians who are living in bosnia and speaking majority of muslim bosnian's language do they muslims ?  ;)  but I agree with you about linguistic scientists.

Offline Dobrev

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2010, 19:53 »
In this case, I cannot agree that there is such a thing as pomak language.

In Bulgaria there is the official Bulgarian language, that was created in the late 19th century, based on a few dialects from the area of Veliko Tarnovo and Sofia regions and there is the spoken vernaculars.

Wherever you go in Bulgaria, all small villages have their own dialects based on the region.

These are dialects that have evolved for centuries, but which have one thing in common - the grammar is Bulgarian.
There exists a grammatical linguistic unity between all Bulgarian dialects. Often the dialects in the different regions differ in the morphology and the range of foreign words.
The western dialects, being transitional between Bulgarian and Serb languages, have a lot of Serbian words. The Southern dialects respectively have a lot of Turkish and Greek words.
What unites all these dialects is the grammar and the syntax - the way sentences are being built. There lies the difference between Bulgarian and other Slavic languages.

The pomak villages speak the dialects that are spoken in the region. It is a shared language between Christians and Muslims and that is why we cannot claim that pomak is different from Bulgarian.

Reasons:
1. Pomaks do not speak one language. We speak different languages, depending on what part of Bulgaria we live in. The Pomaks in Northern Bulgaria speak like the Christians there - northern Bulgarian dialects
The pomaks in Pirin region speak pirin dialects, just like their Christian neighbours - Pirin dialects.
Pomaks in Rhodopi speak same rhodopean dialect as the Christians there.

2. The dialects in the pomak villages employ Bulgarian grammar, morphology and syntax. There is a lot of Turkish words from the Ottoman era, but this is valid for all Bulgaria. Wherever you go, the dialects have a lot of Turkish words in them. The Burgas region populated mainly by Christians have tons of Turkish words in their vernacular. Varna region has tons of Turkish words etc., etc.

With the introduction of the modern Bulgarian language in the late 19th c. most of Bulgaria is trying to get rid of the foreign words and tries to introduce the Bulgarian equivalents instead.

3. We cannot claim that there is such a thing as pomak language, mainly because there is no unity between the different dialects spoken in pomak villages across Bulgaria. The underlying unity is Bulgarian syntax, morphology and grammar.


There is huge differences in the dialects across Bulgaria, but again these are all dialects of the Bulgarian group.
Southern Slavic languages include Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Bulgarian, and Macedonian. A lot of scholars assign Macedonians to Bulgarian or name it as transitional between BG and Serbian.


All dialects in these groups differ a lot, but they are all united by the linguistic characteristics of the respective group.


The dialects spoken in the pomak villages are of the Bulgarian group - heavily influenced by Turkish and with a lot of ancient Slavic remnants and archaisms, but nonetheless these are all Bulgarian dialects.

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 20:56 »
Bulgarian dialects (Bulgarian: български диалекти, balgarski dialekti, also български говори, balgarski govori or български наречия, balgarski narechiya) are the regional spoken varieties of the Bulgarian language, a South Slavic language. Bulgarian dialectology dates to the 1830s and the pioneering work of Neofit Rilski, Bolgarska gramatika (published 1835 in Kragujevac, Serbia). Other notable researchers in this field include Marin Drinov, Konstantin Josef Jireček, Lyubomir Miletich, Aleksandar Teodorov-Balan, Stoyko Stoykov.
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Offline KaraIbrahim

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2010, 01:11 »
 If we want to have Pomak language, then we will have to Vratsa language, for example.
There also speak  language, different of Bulgarian literary...

 And generally,I think this desire for separatism in the early 21 century is useless to anyone

Offline Тоска

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2010, 09:10 »
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These are dialects that have evolved for centuries, but which have one thing in common - the grammar is Bulgarian
The grammer is south-east slavic
 
Quote
Wherever you go in Bulgaria, all small villages have their own dialects based on the region.

True but if you go to the pomak villages which located on rhodope mountains. You can easily find structural differencies not dialectical one.
 
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The dialects in the pomak villages employ Bulgarian grammar, morphology and syntax

Also archaic forms, morphology and syntax
 
Quote
There is huge differences in the dialects across Bulgaria, but again these are all dialects of the Bulgarian group.

There is huge differences in the slavic dialects across south-east europe. These are all dialects and tongues of the south-east slavic group.
 

Quote
In Bulgaria there is the official Bulgarian language, that was created in the late 19th century, based on a few dialects from the area of Veliko Tarnovo and Sofia regions and there is the spoken vernaculars.

Seeing that the official bulgarian not contains relevant dialects from rhodope region. I must think twice before i peg down as common/unified/official language.   
 

 
Decission belongs to pomaks anyway. It's easy to create (i mean alphabet and literatural samples) pomak language. Dialectical approachs seem to related with national feelings. As we know greek side performs studies about pomak language and even there are several requests about pomak language accept as an educational language.

Offline Hashashin

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 10:15 »
I think that Boyan is right. He gave a lot of arguments.
Yes Toska, decission is to pomaks, but we have to estimate the fact that pomaks in Bulgaria in their majority do not claim that their dialect is a separete language.
But if Rup is proclaimed as a pomak language what about other Pomaks who do not speak it, because they have their own dialects?

 

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